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[POLL] Which versions of Phantoms would the community be interested in after the F-4E?


jojyrocks

The choice of interest on the Phantoms after F-4E  

254 members have voted

  1. 1. The choice of interest on the Phantoms after F-4E

    • F-4B
      30
    • F-4J
      115
    • F-4D
      19
    • British Phantom FGR.2
      38
    • F-4S
      52

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  • Poll closed on 09/29/22 at 09:54 PM

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Maybe it's a unpopular opinion but before the introduction of AIM-7E and AIM-9D i think the F-4B was very limited, let's remember that early sparrows (including E variants) has a 40% (if I remember correctly) chance to ignite the motor, we are not even talking about missile performance. AIM-9B slightly better but still not a reliable weapon.

Then we can talk about the missile itself, before 1963 there was AIM-7D which was capable of shooting down only aircraft flying straight, AIM-7E is a more capable missile but very far from the AIM-7M and P which we are used to in DCS.

Then there is the AIM-9B sidewinder that F-86 and F-5 pilots here knows how it struggle.

If we mix not so good missiles with an aircraft unable to dogfight due to the hard wing and the lack of guns (remember the pod was pretty draggy and was used mainly as AG weapon) we have only a very fast aircraft, like the F-104 but way more expensive.

Post mid-60s we can think of a good F-4B with newer weapons but in those years the J came out and it relegate the B variant only to ground attack.

For these reason I would like very much a F-4N, just because it has all the legacy of the B but with Agile Eagle upgrade, new engines, -J weapons and still a plane which saw combat in Vietnam, I'm not interested very much in a slat-lacking Phantom in DCS.


Edited by Mig Fulcrum
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41 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

Post mid-60s we can think of a good F-4B with newer weapons but in those years the J came out and it relegate the B variant only to ground attack.

For these reason I would like very much a F-4N, just because it has all the legacy of the B but with Agile Eagle upgrade, new engines, -J weapons and still a plane which saw combat in Vietnam, I'm not interested very much in a slat-lacking Phantom in DCS-

And it shows.

If you actually did some research on the F-4B, you'd realise that it had MiG-kills right through Linbackers I & II and it closed the tally-list in January 1973, when the Chargers bagged a Fresco as the final USN MiG-kill.

No Ns in Vietnam, no slats, same motors as in the B. The weapons weren't tied to the J anyway.

16 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

The F-4 will be better as a bombtruck than as a fighter. 

It's historical performance might disagree with your assessment here.

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So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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20 minuti fa, Bremspropeller ha scritto:

And it shows.

If you actually did some research on the F-4B, you'd realise that it had MiG-kills right through Linbackers I & II and it closed the tally-list in January 1973, when the Chargers bagged a Fresco as the final USN MiG-kill.

No Ns in Vietnam, no slats, same motors as in the B. The weapons weren't tied to the J anyway.

It's historical performance might disagree with your assessment here.

I don't know were you found your information but I think you are wrong, during operation Linebacker I and II most of the NAVY and Marines AA kills were done by J, not B.

And the last USN kill is done still by a J not a B in January 12, 1973.

Also, high % of B kills were against Mig-17, 1st gen vs 3rd gen, very little Mig-21 were shot down by B (if not none but I don't know that).

About the N yes, you are right, looks like it never saw combat in Vietnam, I was sure of the contrary, thanks for pointing it out.

With "new engines" I was referring about the smokeless engine, not a different one.

And about slats I may be wrong but I knew it was part of the upgrade on the N but maybe it was applied to J and S only (I'm talking about naval variants only)

 

If you like F-4B and you want it in DCS that is perfectly fine, is still an iconic aircraft, I only said it was more limited than what people usually think, partially because it saw combat against relatively weak enemies, like Mig-17 and sometimes even An-2.

I still prefer the J, (post Agile Eagle conversion).

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34 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

I am talking about DCS and what it will face in DCS. Not what it faced in Vietnam (mostly Mig-17, 19 and 21F13)

There'll be a -17 in some time, there already is a -19 and the -21bis isn't that much more capable than the F-13 (which in turn was more maneuverable), PFM or MF.

Your assessment remains flawed. Also, when looked at from the IDF perspective. I'll give you it was an exceptional fighter-bomber in it's time. 😜

17 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

I don't know were you found your information but I think you are wrong, during operation Linebacker I and II most of the NAVY and Marines AA kills were done by J, not B.

I'm not wrong at all. What is wrong, though, is your hypothesis of the F-4B being relegated to only (!) ground-attack, which you're trying to weasel-out of. 🙃

Let's see - Linebacker (I'm counting all kills of '72/73 here, not just Linebacker) USN/USMC MiG-kills:

16 MiGs killed by F-4Js (plus one probable)

10 MiGs killed by F-4Bs

The USMC only had a single MiG-kill, because most USMC squadrons were stationed down south "in country", and not on Yankee Station.

24 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

And the last USN kill is done still by a J not a B in January 12, 1973.

'Rock River 102' - BuNo 153045 - was an F-4B.

28 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

Also, high % of B kills were against Mig-17, 1st gen vs 3rd gen, very little Mig-21 were shot down by B (if not none but I don't know that).

That's mostly because of the Route Packs assigned to the Navy surrounding Haiphong, which didn't account for many MiG-21s, which in turn were stationed closer to Hanoi, which was the Air Force's playground. That's not a "B vs J" thing at all. The whole "B vs J" argument isn't. The J got more kills because there were more Js around when the war went hot and produced all those kill-opportunities. Plus Topgun had been around for some time, elevating the F-4 community's general A-A capability.

The F-4B killed at least three MiG-21s (that's when I stopped looking) - two by VF-142 and one by VF-143. That's in 1967 - pre-Topgun.

42 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

If you like F-4B and you want it in DCS that is perfectly fine, is still an iconic aircraft, I only said it was more limited than what people usually think, partially because it saw combat against relatively weak enemies, like Mig-17 and sometimes even An-2.

The MiG-17 isn't a weak enemy at all - especially when you can't just blow it out of the sky at 10nm head-on, but when you actually have to get in-close and personal and V-ID it first.

Killing an An-2 with missiles only isn't all that easy either.

44 minutes ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

I still prefer the J, (post Agile Eagle conversion).

Agile Eagle was an Air Force project and had not a lot to do with the F-4S, which got it's slats a lot later. The F-4S was more capable than the F-4N, but it also was a good deal heavier.

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So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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18 hours ago, bucklehead said:

In 1992, the Hornet, as disgusting as it is, had pretty much replaced the Phantom in USMC use. If it was to play such a critical role in Marine Air, even all the way up to 92, I would have expected it to play a role in Desert Storm where the US pretty much brought everything. It did not. 
 

I believe that you believe the F-4S is much cooler. That’s cool! 

No, the reason the Phantom (including the -E) was not the best choice for Desert Storm is the logistical issue. I'm not counting the F-4G, since it was highly specialized and as necessary as the early Stealths we sent in. Otherwise, we saw the USAF waste their effort by sending a squadron of F-4Es, only to fly four missions and drop ordinance only three times. 

In a realistic DCS scenario, placing the F-4S onboard in a carrier air wing or forward base, which there were several good candidates, is a much better use than sending F-4Es paltry into the grinder from several hundred miles away. 


Edited by exhausted
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10 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

The bis has better thrust to weight and better missiles. 

And it's uglier. And it has higher wing-loading and more drag, which the higher thrust is trying to overcome. It's not that much better than a PFM or MF all things considered.

In terms of better missiles - well, the Bis' missiles "$uck less" than earlier Fishbed missiles, but they're not exactly on par with contemporary Sidewinders. All of those could be carried by earlier Fishbeds still around, though. Many PFMs (and MFs) were actually around for quite a long time (late 80s and longer) in some air forces. I'll take a PFM over a Bis any time.

So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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9 hours ago, bies said:

We are having two F-4E variants, one from 1970s, one from 1980s.

Great for? Great for nearly any conflict F-4E was being used, Vietnam war, Iran-Iraq war where we have practically all assets for both sides, Israeli-Arab wars like War on Attrition 1970, Yom Kippur war 1973, Mole Cricket over Bekaa Valley 1982 and all what if scenarios with different remaining F-4E operators all around the world since 1970s like Turkey, Greece, Japan, Australia, Egypt. 

And F-4S? Only fictional scenarios. And I'm not extreme, I still see a place for the F-4S, but let's not be silly, the F-4E was incomparably more relevant than the F-4S.

 

In short F-4B in early 1960s was the best fighter aircraft anywhere in the world, with cutting edge performance, holding speed and climb records, able to fight every most modern opponent and win, still having multirole capabilities. F-4J in late 1960s was still top fighter as well.

Most scenarios in DCS are fictional.


ANd its moot discussing historical relevancy considering we dont even have the scenarios for  certain aircraft that people want to see, or vice versa have  aircraft and scenarios for a time frame where they just flew in circles fighting in low intensity warfare,  dumping jdams on jihadis in toyota pickup trucks.

 

F4B doesn't have a map scenario  where it fits and it would be an orphan aircraft considering the other existing  ( or planned) 3rd generation aircraft are from later periods.  Ignoring ww2  Map, s we have  Caucasus ( aside from narrow 2008 Georgian war) , all fictional scenarios . Marianas (outside of potential future ww2 uses) , all fictional.  Persian Gulf isnt large enough to include Iraq, so its not adequate for gulf war, or Iran Iraq war scenarios. Aside from maybe a handfull of skirmishes agianst Iran,  otherwise all fictional scenarios.  Falklands doesnt have much use outside falklands war  ( and there are still so many lacking aircraft for that exact war). This leaves Syria as the only map relevant for a wide variety of non fictional scenarios over various timeframes 1967 war, 1973 war, 1982 war, and low intensity conflicts during 21st century. However for the 67 and 73 wars there are lacking avation assets.

 

 

9 hours ago, bies said:

F-4S in 1980s was just a way cheaper substitute of modern and capable F-14, giving up prestigious role of a fleet defender and being relegated to secondary duties. Libyan Su-22s and MiG-23s were delt with by Tomcats, for a reason. Everything has its own time.

 

Its more relevant to discuss features than  what wars it was or wasn't used. So If you want an interceptor, the F4S is more for you, If you willing to sacrifice BVR capability for more multirole, F4E will be more for you. simple as that.

 

Navy only cared about allowing their cream of the crop tomcats to get the limelight. F4S would of been more than able to carry its own weight against Su22's and export downgraded Mig23's, especially considering these were just skirmishes and not fights in a full fledged war

 

 

 


Edited by Kev2go
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3 hours ago, exhausted said:

No, the reason the Phantom (including the -E) was not the best choice for Desert Storm is the logistical issue. I'm not counting the F-4G, since it was highly specialized and as necessary as the early Stealths we sent in. Otherwise, we saw the USAF waste their effort by sending a squadron of F-4Es, only to fly four missions and drop ordinance only three times. 

In a realistic DCS scenario, placing the F-4S onboard in a carrier air wing or forward base, which there were several good candidates, is a much better use than sending F-4Es paltry into the grinder from several hundred miles away. 

 

If the USAF thought it was an incredible waste of effort, I doubt they would’ve took the time to bring them all the way from PACAF. That said, you could argue the Marines realized that the F-4S would be a complete waste of resources and left them behind. 

Since we’re now talking DCS scenarios, placing a F-14B or F/A-18C on a carrier or forward base is much better than sending F-4S paltry into the grinder. 

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Modules Most Wanted: F-4B, F-4C, F-4D, F-4E, F-4J, F-4N, F-4S

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On 8/5/2022 at 10:43 AM, exhausted said:

I also disagree with this. The selected planes should not be what was most used; they should be what plausibly would have been used during a certain timeframe. The F-4E variants we are getting are huge outliers, even for the late-80s scenarios people are making. The F-4S is a much better fit and it aligns better in terms of timeframe and doctrine. The last -S's were retired in the early 1990s, making challenges against MiG-29s and Su-27s possible. The -E variant is basically a Vietnam variant great for..... ?

 

We all have our preferred metrics for how an aircraft variant "should" be chosen. The bottom line is the variant chosen is what would probably bring in the most popularity and it stands to reason that's the E.

You have specific scenarios where the F-4S just fits and that's fine but you're creating a double standard here because the F-4E as mentioned many times actually fits more scenarios, has seen more service with more countries than any other variant. It has made the most aces and logically has affected more people than any other variant (and no, I'm not even talking about the the F-4F ICE, F-4EJ kai or Terminator etc). I want to make the distinction here that this is not why the F-4E should be chosen, but rather why it's a good reason with merit as to why it would be a logical choice. This leaves the door open for the F-4S as also another logical choice based on the reasons you mentioned.

The F-4S is an amazing jet and I would not complain if that ended up coming first but the problem i have with the general flavour of your posts is this: I'm not sure why the very specific US-only version of an 80s time frame aircraft that fit a very limited doctrine or the fact that it was the best US Phantom is any more valid than the F-4E's global-scale history. More generally... your reason for stating the F-4S should be chosen is not any more valid than the other arguments given for the F-4E.

I personally have no issue with why you like it so much and I understand why YOU want it more, but if you can find a minute to maybe also be empathetic to all the other arguments in favour of the F-4E and just appreciate these arguments (note that this doesn't mean agreeing) rather than ignoring them, implying the F-4E is just the wrong choice and being like "NO.. why F-4E? What is it good for?" Etc... 


Edited by SgtPappy
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The entire reason for the F-4E DMAS/ARN-101 being sent into combat in the 1991 gulf war from Turkey was to support the F-111E's deployed there with their PAVE Tack pods (which the pods didn't arrive in theatre until after the end of hostilities). The F-111E could drop LGB's, just not guide them itself. There were not enough nighttime precision attack platforms on the northern flank of Iraq. If not for that urgent need, then the F-4E would not have been there at all due to an unwillingness to further complicate the logistics trail. The 3rd Tactical Fighter Wing at Clark Airbase in PI was relocated to Elmendorf AK due to the eruption of Mount Pinatubo. The F-4E was replaced by the F-15C and F-15E in the then renamed 3rd Wing at that time. The F-4E was all but out of regular USAF service in 1991 but was still used but the ANG and USAFR for a few years more.

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If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

 

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10 hours ago, bucklehead said:

If the USAF thought it was an incredible waste of effort, I doubt they would’ve took the time to bring them all the way from PACAF. That said, you could argue the Marines realized that the F-4S would be a complete waste of resources and left them behind. 

Since we’re now talking DCS scenarios, placing a F-14B or F/A-18C on a carrier or forward base is much better than sending F-4S paltry into the grinder. 

Well, whether it was USAF or USMC sending F-4s to Desert Storm for a shooting job, it was equally a waste. The difference is that the Air Force could justify that waste, even if the Phantoms it sent were literally on their way to the Bone Yard. The Marines had a ground role and a smaller air wing, thus it could not justify sending the F-4S to that Theater, given that they were confined to Sheik Isa, a couple FOBs and the floating bases.

Since there is no Desert Storm, or even 1980s Gulf War, scenario in DCS, one could easily place the F-4S in ever scenario the F-4E would be present, and more. 

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Interesting how you still insist since before the announcement of F-4E, that naval phantoms are more relevant and fit into more scenarios, while in fact, it's completely the other way around 😆

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I guess it all comes down to what "scenario" constitutes for you. Is it an actual, historical scenario? Well, in that case the F-4E wins hands down.

In a sandbox-environment, anything can be turned into a viable, semi-viable or completely made-up scenario. With several layers of degrading historical correctness or plausibility - from "could have happenend, but for some reason didn't" down to "completely bonkers".

Flying a USMC F-4B out of Lebanon or from the Med just off Lebanon wouldn't require an awful lot of playing pretend.

 

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So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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On 8/7/2022 at 6:15 AM, Bremspropeller said:

I guess it all comes down to what "scenario" constitutes for you. Is it an actual, historical scenario? Well, in that case the F-4E wins hands down.

In a sandbox-environment, anything can be turned into a viable, semi-viable or completely made-up scenario. With several layers of degrading historical correctness or plausibility - from "could have happenend, but for some reason didn't" down to "completely bonkers".

Flying a USMC F-4B out of Lebanon or from the Med just off Lebanon wouldn't require an awful lot of playing pretend.

 

This hit the nail on the head. If someone wants to make theoretical scenarios, which are lots of fun as well, then that wouldn't really make one plane more relevant than the other and it becomes nonsensical to state that one version fits a theoretical, fictional scenario more than another.

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On 8/6/2022 at 10:11 PM, Vampyre said:

The entire reason for the F-4E DMAS/ARN-101 being sent into combat in the 1991 gulf war from Turkey was to support the F-111E's deployed there with their PAVE Tack pods (which the pods didn't arrive in theatre until after the end of hostilities). The F-111E could drop LGB's, just not guide them itself. There were not enough nighttime precision attack platforms on the northern flank of Iraq. If not for that urgent need, then the F-4E would not have been there at all due to an unwillingness to further complicate the logistics trail. The 3rd Tactical Fighter Wing at Clark Airbase in PI was relocated to Elmendorf AK due to the eruption of Mount Pinatubo. The F-4E was replaced by the F-15C and F-15E in the then renamed 3rd Wing at that time. The F-4E was all but out of regular USAF service in 1991 but was still used but the ANG and USAFR for a few years more.

 

really the F4E was used in the gulf war? i thought that was the F4G wild weasel.

 

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1 hour ago, Kev2go said:

 

really the F4E was used in the gulf war? i thought that was the F4G wild weasel.

The F-4E saw very limited use. 3rd TFW from Clark AFB in the Philippines went over to Turkey to support Desert Storm.

The F-4G was the main Phantom to see combat there.

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On 8/9/2022 at 10:30 PM, SgtPappy said:

The F-4E saw very limited use. 3rd TFW from Clark AFB in the Philippines went over to Turkey to support Desert Storm.

The F-4G was the main Phantom to see combat there.

Slightly off topic but, these days I realize that Desert Storm was an absolutely bonkers operation when it comes to aircraft variety and the gap between them. Between the nations, you had some latest/greatest gear like F-15E, Tornados of all kinds, F-15C, F-16s, Hornets, Tomcats, Harriers, A-6 and -7s, and some MiG-29As to oppose them, but then you also had F-4s, Mirage F1s of all versions on both sides, A-4s, F-111s, MiG-21s,23s, 25s, Su-22s, Jaguars, Buccaneers, even EE Lightnings were technically still in service with Saudis I think. Not to mention all kinds of helicopters.

Sheer variety and also the generational gap between aircraft that took part in or at least were around in the conflict is crazy.


Edited by WinterH
because autocorrupt created "fixes" to imaginary typos I needed to re-fix myself :P
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Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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7 ore fa, WinterH ha scritto:

Slightly off topic but, these days I realize that Desert Storm was an absolutely bonkers operation when it comes to aircraft variety and the gap between them. Between the nations, you had some latest/greatest gear like F-15E, Tornados of all kinds, F-15C, F-16s, Hornets, Tomcats, Harriers, A-6 and -7s, and some MiG-29As to oppose them, but then you also had F-4s, Mirage F1s of all versions on both sides, A-4s, F-111s, MiG-21s,23s, 25s, Su-22s, Jaguars, Buccaneers, even EE Lightnings were technically still in service with Saudis I think. Not to mention all kinds of helicopters.

Sheer variety and also the generational gap between aircraft that took part in or at least we're around in the conflict is crazy.

And don't forget the F-104 and F-117

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On 8/11/2022 at 8:00 AM, WinterH said:

Slightly off topic but, these days I realize that Desert Storm was an absolutely bonkers operation when it comes to aircraft variety and the gap between them. Between the nations, you had some latest/greatest gear like F-15E, Tornados of all kinds, F-15C, F-16s, Hornets, Tomcats, Harriers, A-6 and -7s, and some MiG-29As to oppose them, but then you also had F-4s, Mirage F1s of all versions on both sides, A-4s, F-111s, MiG-21s,23s, 25s, Su-22s, Jaguars, Buccaneers, even EE Lightnings were technically still in service with Saudis I think. Not to mention all kinds of helicopters.

Sheer variety and also the generational gap between aircraft that took part in or at least were around in the conflict is crazy.

Yes, that's true, but the difference was not as big as it seems. The most modern Gulf War aircrafts like F/A-18C, Apache, Tornado, MiG-29 etc. were 1980s Cold War variants. Not similar to 2000s we have in DCS. Gulf War Hornets didn't have Link16, JHMCS, AMRAAM, AIM-9X, JDAM, JSOW - they were expected to perform classic air combat and HUD/INS aided iron bombing and sometimes some rudimentary guided weapon attacks.

Even the most advanced Cold War air superiority fighters F-15C MSIP II used by USAF during Desert Storm, having big advantages of all kind, technological, pilot training, AWACS coverage, EW, intelligence, recon, command and control etc. were still often forced to merge with Iraqi MiG-25s and MiG-29s and perform classic air combat. Not just release AMRAAMs form 20nm and go home like during Balkan war, some decade later.

Apache didn't have Longbow datalink, interferometer, II Gen FLIR, FCR, digital avionics. Similar to classic analog A-10A, Tornado GR.1, F-16C Block etc. The airframes were similar but avionics and weapon were very different.


Edited by bies
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Yup, and I would love to have more aircraft from that era. They would be a good match for Russian aircraft from the 80s, such as what we have in FC3, and would also be more interesting to fight in, with guns and heater dogfights being a regular occurrence. This would also open up scenarios based on the fall of Soviet Union turning more violent than it was in reality. We have some of that in FC3 and the Tomcat, but this era could really use expansion.

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I voted British FGR for a number of reasons.  Firstly, I am British.  Secondly, the UK is hugely underrepresented in terms of 'modern' aircraft.  Hawk - dead, Eurofighter - German version, Harrier - American version, Gazelle - French version.  Spitfire & Mossie - WWII.  I would love to see an accurate UK version of any aircraft depicted in DCS, so until the Tornado GR1 is announced, I'm pinning my hopes on this.

e5794237a8ef3c2250b5191ca5a8536f.jpg

 

Complete with standard issue RAFG overcast and drizzle please.

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