How not to tailstrike?

[Rhinozherous]

Hello!

As the F1 is very sensible in pitch axis I had to apply a curve of 20 (Virpil WarBRD) but with and without the curve I always strike the tail on takeoff.

I SLOWLY rotate at 120kts to not more then 12° and wait for takeoff at around 150kts - but the nosewheel seems stuck to the runway until BAAAAAM - the nose snaps up hard and the tail strikes the ground.... It feels very uncontrollable.

Bug or misshandling?

Edited July 25, 2022 by Rhinozherous

[golani79]

Only took of a few times so far but didn't have any tailstrikes yet.

Rotating at ~120 as well.

Virpil CM2 with medium extension.

[Hiob]

20 minutes ago, Rhinozherous said:

Hello!

As the F1 is very sensible in pitch axis I had to apply a curve of 20 (Virpil WarBRD) but with and without the curve I always strike the tail on takeoff.

I SLOWLY rotate at 120kts to not more then 12° and wait for takeoff at around 150kts - but the nosewheel seems stuck to the runway until BAAAAAM - the nose snaps up hard and the tail strikes the ground.... It feels very uncontrollable.

Bug or misshandling?

 

She needs a lot of runway. After rotating it can take quite some time (and runway) depending on the loadout. I find myself impatient from time to time and try to force her off the ground by pulling on the stick (unconsciously?). But if you can control yourself and give her time, she will lift eventually without tail striking.

[Rhinozherous]

Okay, it seems I should give her more time... will train this

Thanks guys!

[Lace]

I use a lot of nose down trim, pretty much through the full flight regime. Helps with over rotating too.

[River]

I hate the F1 takeoff, same with the Mig 21 and the 2000 for example. 

Just a weird wild rodeo ride, left and right wobble, barely controlable when to get airborne. Nothing like IRL when you watch some videos.

Otherwise fantastic module,  hope takeoff gets refined and worked on. 

[sedenion]

58 minutes ago, River said:

I hate the F1 takeoff, same with the Mig 21 and the 2000 for example.

Did you tested the 2000 recently ? They changed the FM, this is way better now.

On 7/25/2022 at 1:08 PM, Rhinozherous said:

Hello!

As the F1 is very sensible in pitch axis I had to apply a curve of 20 (Virpil WarBRD) but with and without the curve I always strike the tail on takeoff.

I SLOWLY rotate at 120kts to not more then 12° and wait for takeoff at around 150kts - but the nosewheel seems stuck to the runway until BAAAAAM - the nose snaps up hard and the tail strikes the ground.... It feels very uncontrollable.

Bug or misshandling?

Apart of the pitch sensitivity problem (which is obvious), I tend to say this is the same problem as the landing-like-a-brick, there is something wrong with the flight model, lack of lift... I especially suspect flaps to be too poorly efficient, they changes almost nothing except the drag and warnings.

Edited August 27, 2022 by sedenion

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, River said:

I hate the F1 takeoff, same with the Mig 21 and the 2000 for example. 

Just a weird wild rodeo ride, left and right wobble, barely controlable when to get airborne. Nothing like IRL when you watch some videos.

Otherwise fantastic module,  hope takeoff gets refined and worked on. 

Trim nose down, my solution anyway. 

Like they inverted the autopilot trim. I truly believe the numbers are mixed up on the stick. Open control indicator, push and pull stick while you watch the animation and the controls indicator. 

 But like @sedenionwrote, it's probably more to this. I "rotate" at 120, keep it steady. Nothing happens, and suddenly boom you pitch wildly. And might tail strike.

In any case, it's EA, and will be fixed.  

[Vek17]

On 7/25/2022 at 6:31 AM, Hiob said:

She needs a lot of runway. After rotating it can take quite some time (and runway) depending on the loadout. I find myself impatient from time to time and try to force her off the ground by pulling on the stick (unconsciously?). But if you can control yourself and give her time, she will lift eventually without tail striking.

She needs about 2500ft currently to take off with full fuel and an A/A load. Clean full fuel is essentially the same. This isn't that long in my book though I've seen things stating the F1 has a 2000ft minimum take off distance which I have only been able to do with low fuel take offs, though it is possible that those numbers were not meant for full fuel.

Overall there may be a slight lift issue given that her landing speeds also seem slightly higher in DCS that listed.

[Flappie]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Nothing happens, and suddenly boom you pitch wildly. And might tail strike.

This.

You need to:

1. Pull the stick all the way down and maintain.
2. As soon as the aircraft nose starts moving up, you must immediately release the stick.

[River]

8 hours ago, Flappie said:

This.

You need to:

1. Pull the stick all the way down and maintain.
2. As soon as the aircraft nose starts moving up, you must immediately release the stick.

It's not smooth after all.  Aircraft  banks left and right too with the main wheels on takeoff roll.  We should have a smooth lift off like the Tomcat,  L 39, Hornet,  Viper,  etc. 

It just needs some work.  Aerges will get there,  still my favorite Dev studio. Thanks Vibora for all the hard work!!! 

[Bremspropeller]

11 hours ago, Flappie said:

This.

You need to:

1. Pull the stick all the way down and maintain.
2. As soon as the aircraft nose starts moving up, you must immediately release the stick.

And it's the same with other aircraft, too. MiG-21s (and other modules) also requires a bit of finesse and releasing backpressure as soon as the nose is coming up. It's game-thing, and not a module-thing.

TBH, I think this is a general issue with the core-game where elevators/ stabs don't have enough pitch authority at rotation, leading you to overshoot rotation-speed and hence becoming more effective quickly and all of a sudden. This behaviour is observable in all airplanes, so it's not a module specific thing to adress.

2 hours ago, River said:

Aircraft  banks left and right too with the main wheels on takeoff roll.  We should have a smooth lift off like the Tomcat,  L 39, Hornet,  Viper,  etc. 

Another game-thing that bothers me is the roughness of all runways. Yes, the soviet runways may take you for a ride, but "western" runways should be smooth. The high-spped taxi/ ground rolling behavior all aircraft is off on those runways.

[Hiob]

14 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Another game-thing that bothers me is the roughness of all runways. Yes, the soviet runways may take you for a ride, but "western" runways should be smooth. The high-spped taxi/ ground rolling behavior all aircraft is off on those runways.

Imagine taking off in 737 towards your holidays in the mediterranean sea, and getting thrown all over the place like riding a countryside road….. 

[sasquatch98]

I’ve just been rotating at 150 and it’s nice and smooth and also for anyone having it hunt or wobble down the runway make sure you turned off high sensitivity nose wheel steering before you start your takeoff roll.

[cailean_556]

With the loadouts I find myself using (for example - 2 drop tanks on the inboards, 38rd rocket pods on the outboards, AIM-9JULI on the tips), I find that rotating at 150-200, full flaps, works for me. There was one occasion where I apparently blew my tyres during the take off run but I wasn't even at 120 knots yet, let alone 150. Haven't managed to be able to replicate that oddity.

[Bremspropeller]

Just rotate to 12° nose up and let her fly off herself. Takes a bit of getting used to, but should be second nature after a couple of patterns.

[Rhinozherous]

Yes, in the meantime it is no problem for me anymore! 

Thank you guys! 

[Nealius]

I seem to have less issue with the rotation and more issue with the wobble. Once I've rotated and I'm waiting for the mains to get airborne, she likes to tip right/left regardless of wind, and I get airborne with about 10-degrees bank every time. I have similar issues with the MiG-21 so it must be my stick sensitivity or something. 

[Hodo]

The wobble is often due to the rudder.  Easy on the rudder when going down the runway.  I have set up curves for the rudder to help with this.   

 

But I like to get to 130-140 before rotating with full load.  I am real gentle on the stick till I see the green on the AOA indicator.  I am usually wheels up at 170-190.   

 

It's actually kind of nice not having it easy on take off.   

[CrazyGman]

Compared to the F-5 and MiG 21 she takes off easy...remember guys unlike other aircraft it's full flaps for take off on the F1. 

Spool up till afterburner. Release the brakes. Rotate at 140-150, and she pulls up smooth without to much stick.

Edited October 3, 2022 by CrazyGman

[Coragem]

On 8/27/2022 at 5:50 PM, Flappie said:

This.

You need to:

1. Pull the stick all the way down and maintain.
2. As soon as the aircraft nose starts moving up, you must immediately release the stick.

This worked perfectly for me, no more tail strike. But´s not easy to pull off. Its weird to give full stick and release at once. But it does work.

[Roostyla]

I use combat flaps or half flaps , decent amount of trim nose up. rotate gently at 150 knots and up she goes. Don't yank on the stick as that's when you will strike.

There is a bug currently where the amount of trim varies spawn to spawn (at least on MP) from a lot of negative trim to neutral. make sure you check that as you will struggle if not trimming correctly.

[CrazyGman]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:59 AM, Roostyla said:

I use combat flaps or half flaps , decent amount of trim nose up. rotate gently at 150 knots and up she goes. Don't yank on the stick as that's when you will strike.

There is a bug currently where the amount of trim varies spawn to spawn (at least on MP) from a lot of negative trim to neutral. make sure you check that as you will struggle if not trimming correctly.

Except that manual says full flaps for takeoff, and using full flaps makes that takeofff distance much shorter, and smoother, i don't even bother to trim up most of the time.

On 11/13/2023 at 7:35 AM, Coragem said:

This worked perfectly for me, no more tail strike. But´s not easy to pull off. Its weird to give full stick and release at once. But it does work.

Or you could just use full flaps like the manual says, and not have this problem.

[Roostyla]

I'll give full flaps a go and see how it performs, thanks for the tip! I don't think i've changed my approach since the module came out. Normal loadout is 2 x fox 2 and a tank / 530 centerline.

[SabreDancer]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:59 AM, Roostyla said:

I use combat flaps or half flaps , decent amount of trim nose up. rotate gently at 150 knots and up she goes. Don't yank on the stick as that's when you will strike.

There is a bug currently where the amount of trim varies spawn to spawn (at least on MP) from a lot of negative trim to neutral. make sure you check that as you will struggle if not trimming correctly.

Is it a bug? Or a way to make players do the proper startup checks