Trimming with a hat

[Ashayar]

Hello there!

 

I have a question, but first, a little disclaimer:

 

I love DCS, I play only DCS since I discovered it. Can't stop. But I am absolutly not an expert in aviation or planes or weapons or whatever. I'm learning, and that's what I love in this game, a ton of things to learn. So, don't hit me if I say something stupid

 

Here is my question:

 

I am using a Constellation Alpha grip, and on every planes, the upper hat is what I use for the trim. The one on the right of the red button at the top of the joystick, a 4 way plus push.

But I don't understand, even if I "click" once, I always overtrim. I just can't click once, and it compensates a little. And by clicking once, I mean pushing the hat no longer than a mouse click.

In the F14B for example, it is a real nightmare (and yeah, I know that the wing sweep changes the trim I need ). The F14B is not the only example, it is the same in all of the planes I am flying who don't have a flying computer.

 

Do you have a clue, maybe something to setup in my grip configuration? I didin't do anything but a calibration profile in my stick. Or do I miss something because I am steel a noob?

 

Have a nice day!

Edited July 25, 2022 by Ashayar

[Svsmokey]

It's not you . This problem has been noted by many , including myself .

Edited July 25, 2022 by Svsmokey

[Ashayar]

16 hours ago, Svsmokey said:

It's not you . This problem has been noted by many , including myself .

 

Do you mean that it is coming from the material or from the pilot?

[schmiefel]

I would assume it's the programming of the trim-function within DCS or the modules itself if its not made via a common SDK-function.

Plus maybe the electronics in our "gaming devices" is not as precise as in the real ones, so that multi registering clicks is very possible. The ALPHA grip (using it myself as my prefered grip) itself has in my opinion not an optimal design for its hat like e.g. the trim buttons on other grips like the ones from TM for the F-16 or F-18 grips. I already thought about options to change this, but I think that needs to replace the whole 4-way&push button there with a better designed one, but that would a) break the warranty and b) I have no clue where to get one with a better designed hat from that fits in there.

[Ashayar]

Thank you for your answers guys. I know a guy who is using a T-50 grip and doesn't seem to have any problem with the trim. That's why I was asking this stupid question. Maybe I just need more training or a lightning bolt, like during my first AAR that I wasn't able to accomplish due to a simple thing. The guy who was flying with me told me a simple thing, and boum!

 

I took a look in the Virpil programming software yesterday, and didin't find any strange thing or options about latency.

 

In  the Virpil joystick tester software, I clicked a few times on the hat, and it was activating between 65 and 95 ms. Doesn't look that bad...

[Svsmokey]

It means that there are several posts regarding trim over-sensitivity in ED'S software , regardless of Hotas manufacturer or pilot . Here is one .

8 hours ago, Ashayar said:

Do you mean that it is coming from the material or from the pilot?

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Svsmokey

[Sokol1_br]

10 hours ago, schmiefel said:

I have no clue where to get one with a better designed hat from that fits in there.

Or you make one with 3D printed parts, examples:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3641494

Or try adapter a commercial "multidirectional switch", eg. the expensive OTTO.

https://br.mouser.com/datasheet/2/603/T8_T_tactile_mini_trim_switches_catalog_page-1815508.pdf

https://br.mouser.com/c/electromechanical/switches/multi-directional-switches/?m=OTTO&sort=pricing

 

But before analise if you have space inside the grip for fit one these.

[dburne]

Can't say I have had any problem with using the Hat on my Gunfighter Pro for trimming. Certainly not to a degree I would need to replace any switches... which seems a bit extreme. I would think Virpil hat would be fine for me as well. Back when I was using the original Virpil Mongoos stick setup it did fine for me also.

Edited July 26, 2022 by dburne

[schmiefel]

Yes, I don't think that the devices are the main problem with trimming. I don't get why Virpil didn't use the shape of the trim hats from the Tomcat or WarBRD grips, because those on the Alpha or the TM50 have a slightly uncommon design. But that doesn't make them less usable.

During a slightly longer cruising flight yesterday, I tried to get the F1 trimmed for straight and level, but I rather could get there to a comfortable trimmed base. Sometimes I thought that now I got it and then suddenly it started to climb, descent or even role in a high rate without any stick input or throttle change. Maybe those "old" and conventional planes were that nervous, but normally they were designed to be rather stable - and a F1 is not a lightweight GA aircraft that could easily get pushed around plus my flight was set to be in calm conditions with just a few clouds and I was cruising above FL100.

And I get this behaviour not only with the F1, but with other 'non-digitally' controlled AC in DCS like the F-5, too. So maybe the basic trimming function in DCS is the real problem here?

[Ashayar]

I don't know if it is a problem in DCS, because some people can trim their planes, that's kinda strange

[LeCuvier]

I don't own the F-14, so I cannot comment on that. But there are in fact planes where the trim action is "too fast". In some cases I have been able to find a fix.
The original poster should state which planes (other than the Tomcat) give him the problem and then we can see if there is a solution.

One possible work-around: If you have rotary encoders they may work better for you because they only produce a very short "ON" pulse for every ratchet click.

[Ashayar]

3 hours ago, LeCuvier said:

I don't own the F-14, so I cannot comment on that. But there are in fact planes where the trim action is "too fast". In some cases I have been able to find a fix.
The original poster should state which planes (other than the Tomcat) give him the problem and then we can see if there is a solution.

One possible work-around: If you have rotary encoders they may work better for you because they only produce a very short "ON" pulse for every ratchet click.

Thanks, I'll give a try with the mousewheel encoder on my Alpha grip!

[Svsmokey]

11 hours ago, Ashayar said:

I don't know if it is a problem in DCS, because some people can trim their planes, that's kinda strange

There are workarounds . I use tiny throttle movements to compensate for over-trimming (per Stick and Rudder-still the best book ever written about how aircraft fly) . Others use axis or possibly encoder inputs instead of hat switches .

And fly-by wire aircraft don't require the kind of fine trimming we're talking about here .

My previous stick was a CH Fighterstick . The coarse trim increments/decrements in DCS particularly gave me(and give with the new stick) fits with the L-39 . Countering overtrim with throttle while cruising at altitude is one thing , but doing so while maneuvering on the deck is much more problematic , particularly as we can't feel stick forces . We can only determine trim effects by centering the stick , and the resulting bobbles are of no consequence up high , but potentially disastrous down low .

Edited July 27, 2022 by Svsmokey

[Dragon1-1]

FYI, in real aircraft electric trim is known to be somewhat imprecise, and certainly inferior to old-style analog trim wheels. It's not a problem with DCS, it's a problem with systems being simulated, and a known one, too. Most aircraft can't be trimmed completely hands-off with just the hat.

25 minutes ago, Svsmokey said:

There are workarounds. I use tiny throttle movements to compensate for over-trimming (per Stick and Rudder-still the best book ever written about how aircraft fly) . Others use axis or possibly encoder inputs instead of hat switches.

I think that's how it's supposed to be done in real aircraft that use electronic trim. You trim it up as best as you can, and then get the rest of the way by adjusting the throttle. Axis inputs are best when you have that option (provided you have axes precise enough to work with that), but most jets don't have analog trim for anything but the rudder.

[Ashayar]

Thanks guys, I'll try using tiny movements on my throttle too!

[schmiefel]

12 hours ago, Svsmokey said:

There are workarounds . I use tiny throttle movements to compensate for over-trimming (per Stick and Rudder-still the best book ever written about how aircraft fly) . Others use axis or possibly encoder inputs instead of hat switches .

I always try to trim a non-digitally controlled and trimmed aircraft with the use of little trim hat pushes plus adjusting the throttle altogether. But esp. in the current F1, but also the F-5 and other conventional steered and trimmed aircraft the problem remains that the trimming I get from this isn't consistent and smooth enough to get sufficient results. In the F1 the 'problem' that the throttle needs a curve to get the AB to work with a detent plus the less available amount of throttle movement that results from this, makes the situation a bit worse, but that may be something that gets corrected during the EA phase.

And I know that those aircraft can't be flown hands-free like the most modern 4th and 5th Gen fighters, but I would expect to get the trimming at least stable enough so that it doesn't jump from down to up or get out of sudden into extremes in both directions after reaching a rather stable straight and level flight almost hands-free for some seconds.

I will try to use the small mousewheel on my Alpha grip as well to see if it makes any difference for the better compared to the 4-way trim hat.

[Svsmokey]

23 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

FYI, in real aircraft electric trim is known to be somewhat imprecise, and certainly inferior to old-style analog trim wheels. It's not a problem with DCS, it's a problem with systems being simulated, and a known one, too. Most aircraft can't be trimmed completely hands-off with just the hat.

The problem is that we can't feel stick forces ! IRL , trim/throttle until no stick force at the speed you wish to fly . In DCS , lacking that feedback , god only knows what is going to happen when you re-center the stick . So the ED trim implementation while perhaps realistic in terms of trim overshoot is NOT operationally realistic due to equipment limitations . Thus i feel that a software compromise in terms of trim sensitivity is warranted .

[Dragon1-1]

11 minutes ago, Svsmokey said:

The problem is that we can't feel stick forces !

Of course we can, they just don't depend on trim, which is often the case in aircraft that use electric trim, too. In some jets, electric trim physically moves the stick in pitch, sometimes even in roll, but that's hardly universal. This can be mimicked with force feedback if you really want it, but in a real jet with hydraulic controls, you do not get feedback on the stick itself. 

Just gradually ease off on the stick while countering with trim and, eventually, throttle. It takes some practice but it's doable. If you have a good stick, the last bit should be really gentle.

[Svsmokey]

I don't even know how to respond to this . Straw arguments , cherry-picking , and operational advice incorporating terms such as "gradually" and "eventually" . For my part , i will just agree to disagree .

14 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Of course we can, they just don't depend on trim, which is often the case in aircraft that use electric trim, too. In some jets, electric trim physically moves the stick in pitch, sometimes even in roll, but that's hardly universal. This can be mimicked with force feedback if you really want it, but in a real jet with hydraulic controls, you do not get feedback on the stick itself. 

Just gradually ease off on the stick while countering with trim and, eventually, throttle. It takes some practice but it's doable. If you have a good stick, the last bit should be really gentle.

 

[Dragon1-1]

Well, it works for me, I can do it without problems, and I can see which jets that I fly move the stick with the trim hat and which ones don't. The problem is not ED's modeling, the problem is real aircraft limitations that you need to learn to work around. It's not that hard, you just have to practice. Sure, trimming out the stick force like you would in an aircraft in which trim does move the stick probably feels better (one day I'll have a proper FFB base), but the other way around is only a little harder to use.