Full circle over many years….. Monitor/TIR > VR > Monitor/TIR – an opinion.

[Gizzy]

Full circle over many years….. Monitor/TIR > VR > Monitor/TIR – an opinion.

I’ve been engaged in DCS for many years and VR since the release of the Rift. I was never one to say VR is ‘great, never going to use monitors again’ but as much as the immersion factor was high there are down sides, many that subtract to immersion even.

When the Rift came out I was running a pretty fast (for the time) CPU and a RTX 970ti. I ordered the Rift from Amazon, tried it for a week and sent it back as having unusable resolution. Everyone else said it was great hmmmm. ordered it again and sent it back the masses continued to say how good it was so I tried a third time some months later and kept it. The trick was to learn to live with the terrible poor resolution and blurred gauges but it was fun with choppers.

Later an OC 10900K CPU, RTX2080ti and HP reverb G1 then the G2 changed things some. Initially it was wow!!!! BUT then when you used the high poly count excellent Tomcat, AH64 Syria Map, Channel map etc and it was back to fiddling with the figures. Dumb down the DCS graphic parameters and reduce SteamVR resolution to 60% for some maps / AC and 80% for others certainly helped. It was OK but not THAT good. I always seemed to want more.

Crypto mining has crashed and Nvidea’s 30 series are dropping in price and I could pick up a RTX 3090 for 1K£ instead of 2K£. This would allow a better FPS but only around 10-15 (current settings)with CPU being bottlenecked and then I'd probably lock it to 45 for motion smoothing.... I'm getting 30-40  now low and 45 higher up...

With VR I always found the use of the mouse or Voice Attack an immersion killer. Over time I have amassed Virpil Throttles, Panel, Collective and TM MFDs. In VR I can just using see and use controls that are not immediately at my fingertips by removing the G2 nose cover but it is still not great.

The last 3 weeks I have been experimenting in depth with Shaders, OpenXR runtimes etc and to be honest they all have some good points BUT with my CPU / GPU SteamVR returned the best FPS with stability by far...

I have a Predator 35” 3440 x 1440 monitor bought for a song several years ago,,, Popped on TrackIR again, put every single DCS graphic parameter to it’s highest setting bar MSAA which I had at 2 (being 4 made no difference due to monitor resolution), popped a AH64 (as just released, a real FPS killer) in the Syria Map, ramp start and fired it up.

FPS was in the region of 80-90 on the ground at the heliport, I was stunned by the sharpness of the gauges and writing in the cockpit displays, the helo reacted to control inputs instantaneously and so much smoother…. My flying this unfamiliar bird had just improved considerably ha ha.. Flying low over buildings, camps and all the cool stuff in Syria map highlighted how detailed and clear it is - I never realised how detailed the map graphics can be with all DCS setting totally maxed. I honestly was amazed. Jumping onto the Caucasus map was similar, boy has this map changed and improved over the years..

Sure in the past I had used the monitor and flew mostly after using the ME but left the system setting as for VR and not totally maxed.

Now, G2 is reserved for WW2 birds where you fly by the seat of the pants and if you dumb down SteamVR enough you will eventually be able to see the enemy…. And the monitor + trackIR will wear the crown for several years... I think.

[dburne]

Since getting into VR in Jan 2017 it has been all VR for me or nothing. I got so hooked and addicted to it that I just can't go without it now - in any game. In fact since getting VR I have greatly increased my gaming time as well. The downside to this is the crap load of money it has cost me. I started with flight sims in the mid 90's and been at it ever since. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by dburne

[Steel Jaw]

Hard to go back to TIR over my VR...pancake is the immersion killer.

[Exorcet]

I've never tried anything but a monitor so it's possible that I'm missing out, but in my view every system has a flaw that keeps me from switching over. For TIR it's unnatural head movement, for VR it's the removal of the physical cockpit (I can't see my keyboard). The ultimate in my opinion is a wide screen monitor connected to a home built cockpit, but obviously this is the least practical and obtainable option. It's the only one that doesn't have negatives experienced in the sim though, at least in my opinion.

[nikoel]

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

I've never tried anything but a monitor so it's possible that I'm missing out, but in my view every system has a flaw that keeps me from switching over. For TIR it's unnatural head movement, for VR it's the removal of the physical cockpit (I can't see my keyboard). The ultimate in my opinion is a wide screen monitor connected to a home built cockpit, but obviously this is the least practical and obtainable option. It's the only one that doesn't have negatives experienced in the sim though, at least in my opinion.

Just make sure to have a bucket and a mop ready for when you try VR for the first time. The brain splatter goes into every crevice and can be hard to clean up

[Shimmergloom667]

I tried several hi-end headsets with my pretty hi-end system and honestly: the immersion factor wore off in 2 days and I was permanently angry about lack of visual fidelity and perfomance / ease-of-use issues.

While I am pretty certain that VR is the way of the future, it is not yet there for me. If I am willing to spend a few hundred bucks or more on that I absolutely have to not be constantly angry about that. I went back to a hi quality monitor and TIR, which has a lot of issues of itself, but works without major technical hickups and runs smoothly and with impeccable quality.

I will revisit VR in the coming years, I am not in a hurry.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Shimmergloom667

[Hiob]

23 minutes ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

I tried several hi-end headsets with my pretty hi-end system and honestly: the immersion factor wore off in 2 days and I was permanently angry about lack of visual fidelity and perfomance / ease-of-use issues.

While I am pretty certain that VR is the way of the future, it is not yet there for me. If I am willing to spend a few hundred bucks or more on that I absolutely have to not be constantly angry about that. I went back to a hi quality monitor and TIR, which has a lot of issues of itself, but works without major technical hickups and runs smoothly and with impeccable quality.

I will revisit VR in the coming years, I am not in a hurry.

 

This!

I have a decent PC and a Valve Index, but I rarely use it for DCS. I can't get over the crappy VR-picture and poor performance. I would love to fly in VR, but it's just not there yet (for me).

[Digitalvole]

I think I’m lucky that I didn’t play DCS before VR so have nothing to compare it with, apart from YouTube vids. I do get frustrated with it sometimes because of the performance hit and loss of graphical fidelity but having tried it on a monitor (without TIR) it just doesn’t cut it for me.

Its like the difference between playing a video game or actually flying a plane but you left your glasses at home. 

[freehand]

I think we all know how this thread will turn out 

Personally I use both depending on mood. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by freehand

[Burt]

It’s like the Delta faucet commercial , build my house around this. Which is what I did when I got my first VR headset, a G2. Love the way of feeling the G’s in VR and the sense of movement and flow. But man the beauty and crispness in 2d is really unmatched especially the clouds.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

12 hours ago, Exorcet said:

I've never tried anything but a monitor so it's possible that I'm missing out, but in my view every system has a flaw that keeps me from switching over. For TIR it's unnatural head movement, for VR it's the removal of the physical cockpit (I can't see my keyboard). The ultimate in my opinion is a wide screen monitor connected to a home built cockpit, but obviously this is the least practical and obtainable option. It's the only one that doesn't have negatives experienced in the sim though, at least in my opinion.

yeah no vr user can see the keyboard, but we feel it instead. Its very doable, don´t limit yourself.
the very same with trackir you don´t stare at your hotas to operate.

[Baldrick33]

13 hours ago, Exorcet said:

I've never tried anything but a monitor so it's possible that I'm missing out, but in my view every system has a flaw that keeps me from switching over. For TIR it's unnatural head movement, for VR it's the removal of the physical cockpit (I can't see my keyboard). The ultimate in my opinion is a wide screen monitor connected to a home built cockpit, but obviously this is the least practical and obtainable option. It's the only one that doesn't have negatives experienced in the sim though, at least in my opinion.

No matter the size of the monitor it is still 2D and this is always the deal breaker for me trying monitors again after experiencing flying in  VR. I have multiple button boxes which are surprisingly easy to locate switches and buttons after a very short period even without seeing them. The lack of depth perception is really highlighted in flying more so than sim racing, I can perform equally well (or badly) in sim racing flitting between monitors and VR, where the latter just adds immersion. Flying feels different between them with VR feeling like flying in an aircraft and monitors like remote controlling it with a camera on board.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Baldrick33

[WipeUout]

VR is all about immersion to the detriment of graphics quality, and it will remain like this forever.  2D takes half the quantity of pixel compared to 3D and it will always mean that VR will never match visual quality of 2D.  Right now I would say that VR can be enjoyable and a very smooth experience if you select the right hardware.  A top GPU, a lttle less resolution HMD and a powerfull single core performance CPU.

The next generation GPU will improve a lot our experience but if your expectations are to match 2D visuals, then you will expect for a long time.

[Dragon1-1]

It will most definitely not remain like this forever. There are already 8K headsets on the market, and the GPU tech is always improving. Also, DCS will get a lot better once engine optimizations are in. I barely sacrifice any graphics quality with ReverbG2 and a 1080Ti, I'm not quite maxed out, but OpenXR allows me to get pretty damn close. Many of our performance woes are due to poorly optimized DCS code, not the headset itself, and SteamVR piles another layer of suck on top of that. 

2D will never solve its problems with depth perception, in VR they don't exist. I'd say, headsets that match resolution of the human eye will come out in our lifetime. Even in 4K the screen door effect is entirely gone, and effective SSAA can be achieved with enough brute GPU power. 

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

22 hours ago, Gizzy said:

Full circle over many years….. Monitor/TIR > VR > Monitor/TIR – an opinion.

I’ve been engaged in DCS for many years and VR since the release of the Rift. I was never one to say VR is ‘great, never going to use monitors again’ but as much as the immersion factor was high there are down sides, many that subtract to immersion even.

When the Rift came out I was running a pretty fast (for the time) CPU and a RTX 970ti. I ordered the Rift from Amazon, tried it for a week and sent it back as having unusable resolution. Everyone else said it was great hmmmm. ordered it again and sent it back the masses continued to say how good it was so I tried a third time some months later and kept it. The trick was to learn to live with the terrible poor resolution and blurred gauges but it was fun with choppers.

Later an OC 10900K CPU, RTX2080ti and HP reverb G1 then the G2 changed things some. Initially it was wow!!!! BUT then when you used the high poly count excellent Tomcat, AH64 Syria Map, Channel map etc and it was back to fiddling with the figures. Dumb down the DCS graphic parameters and reduce SteamVR resolution to 60% for some maps / AC and 80% for others certainly helped. It was OK but not THAT good. I always seemed to want more.

Crypto mining has crashed and Nvidea’s 30 series are dropping in price and I could pick up a RTX 3090 for 1K£ instead of 2K£. This would allow a better FPS but only around 10-15 (current settings)with CPU being bottlenecked and then I'd probably lock it to 45 for motion smoothing.... I'm getting 30-40  now low and 45 higher up...

With VR I always found the use of the mouse or Voice Attack an immersion killer. Over time I have amassed Virpil Throttles, Panel, Collective and TM MFDs. In VR I can just using see and use controls that are not immediately at my fingertips by removing the G2 nose cover but it is still not great.

The last 3 weeks I have been experimenting in depth with Shaders, OpenXR runtimes etc and to be honest they all have some good points BUT with my CPU / GPU SteamVR returned the best FPS with stability by far...

I have a Predator 35” 3440 x 1440 monitor bought for a song several years ago,,, Popped on TrackIR again, put every single DCS graphic parameter to it’s highest setting bar MSAA which I had at 2 (being 4 made no difference due to monitor resolution), popped a AH64 (as just released, a real FPS killer) in the Syria Map, ramp start and fired it up.

FPS was in the region of 80-90 on the ground at the heliport, I was stunned by the sharpness of the gauges and writing in the cockpit displays, the helo reacted to control inputs instantaneously and so much smoother…. My flying this unfamiliar bird had just improved considerably ha ha.. Flying low over buildings, camps and all the cool stuff in Syria map highlighted how detailed and clear it is - I never realised how detailed the map graphics can be with all DCS setting totally maxed. I honestly was amazed. Jumping onto the Caucasus map was similar, boy has this map changed and improved over the years..

Sure in the past I had used the monitor and flew mostly after using the ME but left the system setting as for VR and not totally maxed.

Now, G2 is reserved for WW2 birds where you fly by the seat of the pants and if you dumb down SteamVR enough you will eventually be able to see the enemy…. And the monitor + trackIR will wear the crown for several years... I think.

I have MSAA at 2x. On VR, and my PC is 4 year old mid range with RTX2080Ti in addition
Honestly there are so  many factors involved, it´s hard to tell regarding performance.
And I fly with a lot of MFDs and button boxes with no need to peek under the visor.

[Shimmergloom667]

9 hours ago, WipeUout said:

VR is all about immersion to the detriment of graphics quality, and it will remain like this forever.  2D takes half the quantity of pixel compared to 3D and it will always mean that VR will never match visual quality of 2D.  Right now I would say that VR can be enjoyable and a very smooth experience if you select the right hardware.  A top GPU, a lttle less resolution HMD and a powerfull single core performance CPU.

The next generation GPU will improve a lot our experience but if your expectations are to match 2D visuals, then you will expect for a long time.

But that's exactly the point - I had a wow-effect the first time I used it, and that disappeared very quickly. After 2 days I was simply annoyed. Thusly I am happy to wait untill VR at least reaches current levels of 2D fidelity. That's fine, as I said earlier - I am not in a hurry, and while VR absolutely is the way of the future, I can wait

[Hiob]

15 hours ago, Baldrick33 said:

No matter the size of the monitor it is still 2D <...>

 

Well, I can tell you that a 48" OLED 1m in front of you is more immersive than a 27"/32" Monitor. And it does a lot regarding the readability of gauges and such...
but of course - it still lacks the depth perception!

[5ephir0th]

To me going back to 2D + TIR it’s a no go, the day i get tired of the VR <profanity> of DCS, the day i will stop flying it, and believe me, i can use a 55” OLED 120hz TV for my cockpit but I still prefer VR and every time i start the game on 2D to make something on editor I love more my VR headset.

I have been flying 2.5 years on VR, first with CV1, then with Quest 2 and I don’t how some of you guys say the inmersion it’s a matter of two days, i fly almost every day and I’m still amazed when i fly the Tomcat and see the insanely details or the first try of Apache, I started to laugh like a little boy that has received a Nintendo 64 from christmas.

About the problem of “I can’t see the switches” I have no problems using 3 Thrustmasters MFD and all switches of my throttle base, it’s just a muscular memory thing

[Baldrick33]

59 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Well, I can tell you that a 48" OLED 1m in front of you is more immersive than a 27"/32" Monitor. And it does a lot regarding the readability of gauges and such...
but of course - it still lacks the depth perception!

I have tried a 48" TV, my daughter benefited from that experiment

I tend to focus more on the sensation of flying than being competitive in combat, so you might think non combat sims would be more appealing to me but I just find DCS hits the spot in VR.

I would liken it to visually landing compared with instrument landing. With a monitor I just lose all that visual feedback of height. Of course a big, high res monitor is going to better for spotting targets on a MFD and other on board systems. It just comes down to what we find fun and with all these debates there will never be a right answer but it is interesting to hear other experiences.

I tend to view it as a quest to get the best possible experience and having a whole lot of fun on the journey!

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

2 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

But that's exactly the point - I had a wow-effect the first time I used it, and that disappeared very quickly. After 2 days I was simply annoyed. Thusly I am happy to wait untill VR at least reaches current levels of 2D fidelity. That's fine, as I said earlier - I am not in a hurry, and while VR absolutely is the way of the future, I can wait

this is not a critical message for you, but it´s amazing how mankind believe we are going to live forever, meanwhile that our lives being finite is one of the few actual true facts of the universe.

[Shimmergloom667]

5 minutes ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

this is not a critical message for you, but it´s amazing how mankind believe we are going to live forever, meanwhile that our lives being finite is one of the few actual true facts of the universe.

I get what you mean, as in: enjoy now and don't wait for an intangible future. Point is: I simply don't enjoy what VR has to offer right now, but it's close enough that I don't have to wait for some nebulous far future. Still: I get what you mean, and I really hope that everyone enjoying VR right now will only see it get better!

[edmuss]

I started my VR journey with the oculus DK2, it was mind blowing in elite dangerous and I clocked up hundreds of hours in it, no where near enough clarity for DCs though, stuck with monitor and opentrack at the time.  Upgraded the DK2 to a lenovo explorer, clarity was better for DCS but performance wasn't great (GTX780), upgraded to a GTX1070 and it allowed DCS to be playable.  Now on G2/openxr/3070 and it still gives me the awesome immersion feeling, using leap motion adds to that with the action of reaching and flicking switches.

Yes it could be better, you have to make compromises but I can't go back to pancake now for sims (flying/space/driving)

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

15 minutes ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

I get what you mean, as in: enjoy now and don't wait for an intangible future. Point is: I simply don't enjoy what VR has to offer right now, but it's close enough that I don't have to wait for some nebulous far future. Still: I get what you mean, and I really hope that everyone enjoying VR right now will only see it get better!

then I will throw in the last effort to convert you to VR religion:

VR videos where adults do adults' things with few clothing.

If that doesn´t trigger your interest, I don´t know what will do LOL

[Shimmergloom667]

24 minutes ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

then I will throw in the last effort to convert you to VR religion:

VR videos where adults do adults' things with few clothing.

If that doesn´t trigger your interest, I don´t know what will do LOL

I'd rather do that with real adults than on VR, but thanks still!

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

2 minutes ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

I'd rather do that with real adults than on VR, but thanks still!

buff that´s an expensive hobby!!