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Losing enthusiasm with VR


dooom

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@Digitalvole

I find the fact, that OXR can do motion reprojection at 30FPS is actually the main benefit. SVR can only do it as low as 45FPS. Now of course at 30FPS OXR has to "guess" 2 frames for every actaul frame and that probably causes some errors/artifacts but at that point SVR woudn`t even try to do MR...hence it will look better, but be more jittery. I hate jittery, But everybody has his/her own preferences. Maybe try to lock the MR at 45FPS with OXR in the toolkit...?

 

Back to the actual topic:

2D is less taxing on the hardware and will thereby always leave more headroom for better graphics. This will not change anytime soon...maybe never. If 2D is your reference, you will always be unhappy with VR. Vulkan should get us some gains though...

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6 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

2D is less taxing on the hardware and will thereby always leave more headroom for better graphics. This will not change anytime soon...maybe never. If 2D is your reference, you will always be unhappy with VR. Vulkan should get us some gains though...

I've been thinking a lot about this these days and I have some concerns about what will happen with DCS after Vukan and especially multicore. Will ED use the new engine to put a lot more new features into DCS what pushes our future Pc's again to the limits in 2D and VR users have similar problems like today?

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Absolutely . Always has been a rat race between software and hardware .

42 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

I've been thinking a lot about this these days and I have some concerns about what will happen with DCS after Vukan and especially multicore. Will ED use the new engine to put a lot more new features into DCS what pushes our future Pc's again to the limits in 2D and VR users have similar problems like today?

 

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3 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

@Digitalvole

I find the fact, that OXR can do motion reprojection at 30FPS is actually the main benefit. SVR can only do it as low as 45FPS. Now of course at 30FPS OXR has to "guess" 2 frames for every actaul frame and that probably causes some errors/artifacts but at that point SVR woudn`t even try to do MR...hence it will look better, but be more jittery. I hate jittery, But everybody has his/her own preferences. Maybe try to lock the MR at 45FPS with OXR in the toolkit...?

 

Back to the actual topic:

2D is less taxing on the hardware and will thereby always leave more headroom for better graphics. This will not change anytime soon...maybe never. If 2D is your reference, you will always be unhappy with VR. Vulkan should get us some gains though...

 

Absolutely, 2d on a monitor will always spank VR in a headset in performance by a fairly large margin. That is one unchangeable fact. Hopefully as time moves on the gap will start to at least close some. 

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I love VR and it seems like no matter how satisfied I am with it, I eventually get an itch, or some other 'thing' happens that makes me need/want to tweak again, and each time it just gets better for me.

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@Phantom711 Thanks for the advice, but I think I prefer svr at the moment. Keeping an eye on oxr though. I don’t want to go into details and derail the thread.

On topic, My finger was hovering over the Buy button for a TrackIR yesterday morning, I’m glad I didn’t press it. I had a quick dogfight in the Tomcat last night (vr) and quickly realised there’s no other way I want to play DCS than in VR. Even with its slight annoyances it is the best “gaming” experience I’ve ever had. 

11 hours ago, Tom Kazansky said:

I've been thinking a lot about this these days and I have some concerns about what will happen with DCS after Vukan and especially multicore. Will ED use the new engine to put a lot more new features into DCS what pushes our future Pc's again to the limits in 2D and VR users have similar problems like today?

Yeah it seems likely, I just hope we get more options for disabling stuff if this happens. I think multithreading is going to make the biggest difference to us, especially after the 40 series comes out.

7 hours ago, Slammin said:

I love VR and it seems like no matter how satisfied I am with it, I eventually get an itch, or some other 'thing' happens that makes me need/want to tweak again, and each time it just gets better for me.

Im the opposite, probably because I’m so time poor at the moment (two young children plus it’s the school holidays). I love it when you find some new tweak that improves your experience, but if it has an undesired effect I get bummed out as it’s wasted an evening where I could have just flown a mission, my previous post was a product of this. The best thing for me right now is being able to just turn it on and play.

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2D of course isn't as taxing as 2 images in 3D, however I don't necessarily agree quality always, and will always, be substandard. Performance will always be faster in 2D but in my experience the quality of what I'm seeing in VR is honestly not significantly worse, even on today's hardware.

 

It does depend on the quality of the headset but with my setup I am running most graphics features maxed out and the rest high, including SSLR. I get decent FPS (50-75) - but of course in 2D I can get 120+. But that isn't absolutely necessary and bear in mind the FoV I have can't be replicated on a monitor. Even multiple monitors.

 

I flew in 2D TrackIR until 2019 and intend no condescension towards 2D players but for me now, if it isn't in VR then it isn't flying. And if you can turn all the eye-candy up with good resolution then I don't feel I am compromising at all.

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Just get close and fly he’ll even the human body has issues and hickUps.

I’m guess DCS 3.0


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On 7/28/2022 at 7:32 PM, dooom said:

I just feel like I am spending faaar too much time fiddling around trying to get things smooth, clear and in my sweetspot.  Its more time fiddling than just enjoying the game.  I'm locked at 45 fps and still drop below that sometimes and feel like the learning curve is still so high that I'll never get optimized.

I'd recommend to just stop trying to optimize. The runtime of behavior of general purpose operating systems and software is just all over the place, the timing is unsteady, the performance is unsteady, things run in the background sometimes, etc. - it's just not worth it, it is what it is and there is not much you can do to make it better. The software just isn't designed to deliver steady performance, let alone guaranteed steady performance, so there will always be lags, freezes, fps drops, etc., it's just a result of how this stuff works internally.

 

On 7/28/2022 at 7:32 PM, dooom said:

Maybe VR isnt for me... how did the rest of you get over this funk?

I guess my pain tolerance is just higher. I use an Oculus Rift S, and the only thing I can tell you to lift you up is that the Rift S is probably way worse than your G2, and despite that, I still play in VR.

If I told you how many problems the Rift has, you'd probably love your G2. And it's not just random frame drops in DCS, where I have to take the thing off, set it down on the desk for 30 seconds, and then when I put it back on, it magically recovers to a normal frame rate. That thing has serious hardware and driver issues. Like, I frequently have to unplug it and plug it back in, because the driver can't find it. The driver would tell me that the HDMI cable is not connected, but the actual fix for the problem is to unplug and replug the USB cable. It has position tracking issues. It doesn't work in a dark room, because it relies only on cameras (yeah, noone has told those geniuses that gyros and accelerometers are a thing). If there is the slightest amount of moisture on my face, I can either use a hairdryer on both, my face and the headset, or it would just mist up every time I put it on for the next 25 minutes and I can't see anything. I have had it for about a year now, and the fabric that covers the foam is coming apart.

Virtually everything is wrong with the Rift S. The hardware isn't durable at all, it's not well-designed, the software is total sh*t, none of the bugs have ever been fixed, their Oculus software developers just suck at getting anything done properly.

But nonetheless: I pretty much always play DCS in VR. It's just so much more immersive, and it is so much more convenient to just turn the head to look in different directions.

Concerning performance vs. visuals, I'd rather go for performance and other game feature enhancements than even more polished visuals. The visuals are fine, and spending a lot of money for new hardware just for even more visual effects that don't really do anything else than just look nice just isn't worth it in my opinion.

Not sure what else I can tell you... I guess it is what it is for now.
 

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2 hours ago, Aquorys said:

I'd recommend to just stop trying to optimize. The runtime of behavior of general purpose operating systems and software is just all over the place, the timing is unsteady, the performance is unsteady, things run in the background sometimes, etc. - it's just not worth it, it is what it is and there is not much you can do to make it better. The software just isn't designed to deliver steady performance, let alone guaranteed steady performance, so there will always be lags, freezes, fps drops, etc., it's just a result of how this stuff works internally.

 

I guess my pain tolerance is just higher. I use an Oculus Rift S, and the only thing I can tell you to lift you up is that the Rift S is probably way worse than your G2, and despite that, I still play in VR.

If I told you how many problems the Rift has, you'd probably love your G2. And it's not just random frame drops in DCS, where I have to take the thing off, set it down on the desk for 30 seconds, and then when I put it back on, it magically recovers to a normal frame rate. That thing has serious hardware and driver issues. Like, I frequently have to unplug it and plug it back in, because the driver can't find it. The driver would tell me that the HDMI cable is not connected, but the actual fix for the problem is to unplug and replug the USB cable. It has position tracking issues. It doesn't work in a dark room, because it relies only on cameras (yeah, noone has told those geniuses that gyros and accelerometers are a thing). If there is the slightest amount of moisture on my face, I can either use a hairdryer on both, my face and the headset, or it would just mist up every time I put it on for the next 25 minutes and I can't see anything. I have had it for about a year now, and the fabric that covers the foam is coming apart.

Virtually everything is wrong with the Rift S. The hardware isn't durable at all, it's not well-designed, the software is total sh*t, none of the bugs have ever been fixed, their Oculus software developers just suck at getting anything done properly.

But nonetheless: I pretty much always play DCS in VR. It's just so much more immersive, and it is so much more convenient to just turn the head to look in different directions.

Concerning performance vs. visuals, I'd rather go for performance and other game feature enhancements than even more polished visuals. The visuals are fine, and spending a lot of money for new hardware just for even more visual effects that don't really do anything else than just look nice just isn't worth it in my opinion.

Not sure what else I can tell you... I guess it is what it is for now.
 

Regarding using the rift s in the dark, I bought an ir led lamp for about $30 and you could play perfectly

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On 7/28/2022 at 11:32 AM, dooom said:

Hey all,

I'm in need of a lift - or at least a little nudge as I have found myself losing my enthusiasm over VR the last few weeks.

It was only this spring that i finally broke down and built a new PC and picked up a Reverb G2 v2.  I have increasingly been finding myself disenchanted with VR and its implementation.

I'm currently sitting on a 5800x, 64 GB Ram, 6900XT (that i paid far toomuch for just prior to the price crash) and my G2.  I have installed OpenXR and the Toolkit and even read, viewed and researched the multitude of resources and suggestions around AMD and OXR/WMR

I just feel like I am spending faaar too much time fiddling around trying to get things smooth, clear and in my sweetspot.  Its more time fiddling than just enjoying the game.  I'm locked at 45 fps and still drop below that sometimes and feel like the learning curve is still so high that I'll never get optimized.

Then i look at the poor resolution in my G2 (compared to 4k on 2D and I just think... man with my rig I should just buy a 38" 4K monitor and go back to TrackIR.  I'm sure i could drive some pretty nice visuals in 2D.

Maybe VR isnt for me... how did the rest of you get over this funk?

Thanks for any suggestions....

are you on pre-rendered frames set at 3?  pixel density in DCS VR settings at 1.25?  Are you a member of a group / squadron?  Maybe that will take your mind off performance issues.  My issue today was battery life.  After plugging in my new beast rig, my headset battery only lasted a fraction of how long I wanted it to

 


Edited by Iceman555

VR rig - stinkin' cool!

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On 7/28/2022 at 1:46 PM, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

How did I get over the funk?  Gave up. Haven’t even signed in in months. Continue to monitor this site in hopes of an announcement of big improvements 

Your mileage may vary

Man me and you are in the same boat here, I have my VR sitting here collecting dust, the promises of things to come on the basis of improvement have waned on too long. Multithread this Vulkan that, but we have time for stupid animations that you will not see when you are the pilot. What next? I guess they have the "AND BEYOND" down pat!!!

 

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I have a 3090/5800x3d/G2 VR setup... and I don't do Air to Air in it anymore. The graphical issues are just too much for me to stomach, in particular the ghosting of close contacts, which is where my lovely 55" 4K OLED does offers the experience I'm looking for.

On the other hand, I've found that Air to Ground missions are much easier to handle when locked at 45fps - without ACM, I don't see the ghosting. But yeah, I feel your pain - I think we're a few years away at least before VR in DCS comes close to the visual quality of 2D. In the meantime, a bigscreen 4K OLED offers a similar level of immersion, without the hassle.

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26 minutes ago, GunSlingerOZ said:

I have a 3090/5800x3d/G2 VR setup... and I don't do Air to Air in it anymore. The graphical issues are just too much for me to stomach, in particular the ghosting of close contacts, which is where my lovely 55" 4K OLED does offers the experience I'm looking for.

On the other hand, I've found that Air to Ground missions are much easier to handle when locked at 45fps - without ACM, I don't see the ghosting. But yeah, I feel your pain - I think we're a few years away at least before VR in DCS comes close to the visual quality of 2D. In the meantime, a bigscreen 4K OLED offers a similar level of immersion, without the hassle.

Not likely it will be close to 2d, as improvements are made to help VR so will improvements be made for the 2d experience. I don't see VR equaling 2d anytime soon if ever. For me though it is now VR or nothing, don't think I could go back to monitor play. I do love pretty graphics but not at the expense of the immersion I get in VR. Have not run a 2d game at all since Jan 2017 when I first got into VR. 

However a big caveat here - I only do single player.


Edited by dburne
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2 hours ago, GunSlingerOZ said:

I have a 3090/5800x3d/G2 VR setup... and I don't do Air to Air in it anymore. The graphical issues are just too much for me to stomach, in particular the ghosting of close contacts, which is where my lovely 55" 4K OLED does offers the experience I'm looking for.

On the other hand, I've found that Air to Ground missions are much easier to handle when locked at 45fps - without ACM, I don't see the ghosting. But yeah, I feel your pain - I think we're a few years away at least before VR in DCS comes close to the visual quality of 2D. In the meantime, a bigscreen 4K OLED offers a similar level of immersion, without the hassle.

I always wondered if G2 software allows for keyboard shortcuts or voice command to turn on/off retroprojection. Like your regular flying at 45fps locked, then a bandit appears, ghosting eveywhere, you press/speak and fps are unlocked and no ghosting. Once you down the bandit, back to 45fps.
is that doable? I think oculus software tray tool allows that.

what I strongly disagree is any size monitor offering a similar level of inmersion 🙂

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Ala12Rv-Tundra:

I always wondered if G2 software allows for keyboard shortcuts or voice command to turn on/off retroprojection. Like your regular flying at 45fps locked, then a bandit appears, ghosting eveywhere, you press/speak and fps are unlocked and no ghosting. Once you down the bandit, back to 45fps.
is that doable? I think oculus software tray tool allows that.

what I strongly disagree is any size monitor offering a similar level of inmersion 🙂

The G2 does not come with its own software. 
DCS runs via Windows Mixed Reality and normally SteamVR. With some minor tweaking you can use OpenXR instead of SteamVR…neither of them allow to turn Motion Reprojection on/off while you are already running the sim.


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Im jumping between VR and 2D recently. Came back to VR just four months ago and only with OpenXR its getting close to feel acceptable for me. Unfortunately with an AMD-Gpu motionsmoothing is a problem so Im stuck on 45fps.

Even Im playing for the most part in VR now, if my wife threw my G2 into the trashcan, Id miss VR maybe only a few days and right away be happy with 2D again.

VR requires top, meaning aweful expensive hardware to offer only a mediocre result. Im pretty sure the next gen GPU will help to alleviate things, but only to make higher settings possible and we will be back at square 1 pretty soon.

Vulcan and multithread? My guess is 2026 at the earliest!

If you want to use VR accept its many shortcomings. If you prefer 2D its fine and I really understand you.

But going to a church and asking people there, what to do since your faith is vanishing, dont expect to get an unbiased answer. And for quite a few VR in many respects is like faith. 😉

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I with OpenXR toolkit in DCS do not have big improvements, instead with OperVR-FSR set on VrPerfkit with 77% renderscale, sharpening 70% Radius 0.6 I get 90 fps almost fixed, on Caucasus, Nevada, Persian Gulf, the other more recent scenarios are more heavy and takes a little more effort, especially in dense areas of buildings.
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13 hours ago, Jazz_82 said:

I with OpenXR toolkit in DCS do not have big improvements, instead with OperVR-FSR set on VrPerfkit with 77% renderscale, sharpening 70% Radius 0.6 I get 90 fps almost fixed, on Caucasus, Nevada, Persian Gulf, the other more recent scenarios are more heavy and takes a little more effort, especially in dense areas of buildings.
My Pc is made up of i7 12700K, 32GB RAM, RX 6900 XT Hp Reverb G2

90fps, what a dream 🙂 I sometimes see 80 when flying very very high and barely any units involved.
Regarding maps, I created a new profile with flat shadows and other details for Marianas or Syria

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I understand this entirely. I used to be a 100% VR flyer in DCS (to the point where I didn't even have a monitor facing my setup) however I have recently moved to being perhaps 80% flat screen and 20% VR. For my flat screen flying I use a 49" 5440x1440 panel which I have on a monitor extension arm so it can be quite close to me while I am flying. For me I found increasingly I was spending more time playing with settings when something went too way one way or the other (either putting things too low and struggling to read MFD's or hitting some stuttering mess point) than I was flying and enjoying my time. It's not like my setup is underpowered either (Ryzen 5800X3D, RTX 3080 (though that VRAM limitation 🤨), 32GB of RAM)

Over time I've found the 3D illusion of VR to be less convincing (I remember when I first put a VR headset on thinking "wow", now not so much) and with the super ultrawide display my whole FOV is occupied by display rather than restricted view in VR (with a Reverb G2, which I know isn't the best FOV). I've also come to appreciate the comfort of not having a pair of screens plastered to the front of my head for extended periods of time. 

The main thing I miss is the 1:1 head movements which is great particularly for HMD's, but I've gotten better at using headtracking in 2D.

Each way is trade-offs, and right now the trade-offs for using VR just aren't worth it for me, however I totally get why for some it would be and for a long time it was for me.

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VR user since around 2017. No issues here, still having a lots of fun with VR and i will never fly in 2D, for sure.

It´s up to each one of us. Maybe VR it´s not for you.

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My biggest complaint is about the mediocre black level reached by the two HMDs I tried - Index and G2, where the latter doesn't allow to adjust its brightness.

Makes night flying a bit ridiculous, where I find the "scuba mask" effect to be even more irritating.

Other than that, I entirely blame DCS for being monstrously heavy to run.

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Opencomposite has made a massive improvement for me in DCS. I would never have returned to DCS without it. Consistent 30fps with reprojection for 90 has been amazing with minimal artefacts (versus 22.5fps reprojection). Prior to OC I would struggle to get much over 23 with same game settings. I've got a couple of systems but i'm generally using a 5900x, 3080, 32g of 3600 ram and a g2


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I'm starting to feel this as well. VR works great for simple flying and training missions, but trying any actual game content like campaigns is borderline unplayable at times. I run DCS at very low settings, PD 1.0, game bar off, background processes killed, verperfkit installed, and no matter what I do I am instantly thrown to 24fps on the deck of the supercarrier--or even 3nm away simply lookin in the direction of the supercarrier. From locked 36 (72hz) or 45 (90hz) immediately down to 24fps, then back up to 36/45 when I look away from the carrier. Doesn't matter if I run my Quest 2 resolution at 1.5x or 1.0x, or everything in between, the results are exactly the same no matter what I change, yet people on less powerful GPUs are getting better VR performance. Doesn't make sense.

OC'd 4.6GHz, 3060 with 12GB VRAM, 32GB DDR4, 32GB pagefile, SSDs of course. 

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4 hours ago, Nealius said:

I'm starting to feel this as well. VR works great for simple flying and training missions, but trying any actual game content like campaigns is borderline unplayable at times. I run DCS at very low settings, PD 1.0, game bar off, background processes killed, verperfkit installed, and no matter what I do I am instantly thrown to 24fps on the deck of the supercarrier--or even 3nm away simply lookin in the direction of the supercarrier. From locked 36 (72hz) or 45 (90hz) immediately down to 24fps, then back up to 36/45 when I look away from the carrier. Doesn't matter if I run my Quest 2 resolution at 1.5x or 1.0x, or everything in between, the results are exactly the same no matter what I change, yet people on less powerful GPUs are getting better VR performance. Doesn't make sense.

OC'd 4.6GHz, 3060 with 12GB VRAM, 32GB DDR4, 32GB pagefile, SSDs of course. 

From what I understand, the supercarrier deck is super heavy with CPU usage, try running some analytics on your CPU frametimes and see what it's doing.  If you run opencomposite/openxr toolkit you may find that you get sufficient uplift to make it useable.  Back to back testing with steamvr vs open composite costs me 10ms of frametime on heavy GPU load areas (like flying over Beirut) which is absolutely massive.

You may also struggle with the 3060, it might have 12GB vram but I think it's on a fairly slow bandwidth bus so can't get the date through fast enough.

Ryzen7 7800X3D / RTX3080ti / 64GB DDR5 4800 / Varjo Aero / Leap Motion / Kinect Headtracking
TM 28" Warthog Deltasim Hotas / DIY Pendular Rudders / DIY Cyclic Maglock Trimmer / DIY Abris / TM TX 599 evo wheel / TM T3PA pro / DIY 7+1+Sequential Shifter / DIY Handbrake / Cobra Clubman Seat
Shoehorned into a 43" x 43" cupboard.

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