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sedenion

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1 hour ago, sedenion said:

This part of the manual explain the risk of spin by rolling unreasonable way at low speed / High AOA... which is true for almost all aircrafts... in the same logic : beware, at very very low speed, the flight controls are not responding anymore and aircraft begins to fall like a stone...

The main problem here is : what exactly is "low speed", and "high AOA". "low speed" and "high AOA" is not the same for a Cesna 172 and a F-16... So, at which speed it become impossible to properly stabilize the aircraft roll and yaw without constantly playing with our feets ? It is absolutely normal to have a very careful manoeuvring at landing, but, landing is a very specific situation.

You simply need to buy either pedals for your warthog or get a stick with a twist axis.

It's a primary flight control, it is not optional. 

You should post a track, that shows, what you think is incorrect behaviour.

For me pitch control is fine with a crappy old X-52, no curves.

 

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Have I missed something? I hope, I got something wrong - but is OP not using rudder whilst flying and suggesting the flight model is wrong because he gets yaw oscillation when trying to aileron roll?

The question at which speed rudder is necessary is easily answered: At all speeds! At least if you want to fly coordinated. And at one point (speed/AoA) it becomes mandatory. At what point? I can't tell, because the amount of rudder-usage gradually increases nad I don't think about it while flying. It's a feedback loop. I want to roll -> give sidestick and a little rudder -> nose is not following as desired -> give more rudder -> lot's of rudder -> ease on the ailerons.... and so on.....

Impossible to pour that into numbers imho.

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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4 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Have I missed something? I hope, I got something wrong - but is OP not using rudder whilst flying and suggesting the flight model is wrong because he gets yaw oscillation when trying to aileron roll?

And, here we go again. No, that's not what I was saying, but, as always here, once you emit a single question about current FM or Radar implementation of a (early access, for recall) module, some people simply don't tolerate such questioning and blame the fool heretic that dared to emit some doubt about the pure fidelity and finishness of modelisation which, as everybody knows, is always directly perfect, absolutely complient and non criticable. Same thing happened with the Mirage 2000... So I am not so scared. Topic is end for me... thanks

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6 minutes ago, sedenion said:

And, here we go again. No, that's not what I was saying, but, as always here, once you emit a single question about current FM or Radar implementation of a (early access, for recall) module, some people simply don't tolerate such questioning and blame the fool heretic that dared to emit some doubt about the pure fidelity and finishness of modelisation which, as everybody knows, is always directly perfect, absolutely complient and non criticable. Same thing happened with the Mirage 2000... So I am not so scared. Topic is end for me... thanks

I‘m terribly sorry. I didn’t intend to offend you, but at some point you suggested, that you use rudder only for taxiing. That’s why I asked if I misunderstood something, because it is simply impossible to fly certain aircraft without the use of rudder.

…and the second point of (possibly) misunderstanding was your question at what sppeds/aoas rudder becomes mandatory, or not? 


Edited by Hiob

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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1 hour ago, Hiob said:

I‘m terribly sorry. I didn’t intend to offend you, but at some point you suggested, that you use rudder only for taxiing. That’s why I asked if I misunderstood something, because it is simply impossible to fly certain aircraft without the use of rudder.

Don't worry, I have thick skin. That's true, I mainly use rudder (erzats) only for taxiing, which is not an huge problem for all Modules I have... Anyway, I am aware that rudder may be usefull in many circonstances for a better aircraft stability. This topic originaly don't focus specifically on yaw instability, but also pitch sensivity, an finaly the flight model in general, since the question was : "Is that normal I can't even dogfight a Su-25 ?"... meaning, between the lines : "Are you sure the real Mirage F1 fly as bad as it fly in the current state of FM ?"

Then, once the Mirage F1 was compared to the Mig 21BIS (Like the Mirage 2000 when released in early access <cough cough>), we had some consideration arround:
- It seem the real Mirage F1 have yaw dampening system that seem to be not implemented yet.
- It seem the real Mirage F1 have several pitch regulation systems, that seem to be not properly implemented yet.
- Maybe, the current FM implementation need some adjustements...

So, to answere HWasp dans la foulée, it appear reasonable to me to wait and see if developpers have some adjustements to do to the current FM, before investing in a rudder device and considering cropping Y axis curve by 40% as a "normal state"...

And, once again, the same thing happened with the Mirage 2000, same reactions, etc... So, I am not afraid, I am pretty confident that things will go better and Mirage F1 will finaly be able to properly catch a Su-25 and beat a Mig-21 in guns-only (without over-tuning axis curves nor buying a rudder)...


Edited by sedenion
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19 minutes ago, sedenion said:

Don't worry, I have thick skin. That's true, I mainly use rudder (erzats) only for taxiing, which is not an huge problem for all Modules I have... Anyway, I am aware that rudder may be usefull in many circonstances for a better aircraft stability. This topic originaly don't focus specifically on yaw instability, but also pitch sensivity, an finaly the flight model in general, since the question was : "Is that normal I can't even dogfight a Su-25 ?"... meaning, between the lines : "Are you sure the real Mirage F1 fly as bad as it fly in the current state of FM ?"

Then, once the Mirage F1 was compared to the Mig 21BIS (Like the Mirage 2000 when released in early access <cough cough>), we had some consideration arround:
- It seem the real Mirage F1 have yaw dampening system that seem to be not implemented yet.
- It seem the real Mirage F1 have several pitch regulation systems, that seem to not properly implemented yet.
- Maybe, the current FM implementation need some tunning...

So, to answere HWasp dans la foulée, I appear reasonable to me to wait and see if developpers have some adjustements to do to the current FM, before investing in a rudder device and considering cropping Y axis curve by 40% as a "normal state"...

Comparing the F1 to the Mig-21 is a far stretch IMHO.

We won't come to a conclusion here most likely.

But I can 100% positively guarantee you that rudder is not only "useful in many circumstances", but a fundamental necessity for some aircraft (prime example would be the Tomcat). I can't tell if this is true for the F1 because I have no sources (other than for the Tomcat), but I would assume so from how it feels.

Edit: Perhaps this could help you to put the ability to dogfight the F1 with the current FM in perspective:

 


Edited by Hiob

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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10 minutes ago, Hiob said:

But I can 100% positively guarantee you that rudder is not only "useful in many circumstances", but a fundamental necessity for some aircraft (prime example would be the Tomcat).

Tomcat only needs rudder at high AoA. For everything else you can fly with feet on the floor and still be coordinated. Which is the same as every other pre-FBW module in DCS as a whole except the F1. So the question is, why does the F1 have adverse yaw at low AoA while other analog jets don't? 

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3 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Tomcat only needs rudder at high AoA. For everything else you can fly with feet on the floor and still be coordinated. Which is the same as every other pre-FBW module in DCS as a whole except the F1. So the question is, why does the F1 have adverse yaw at low AoA while other analog jets don't? 

Of course you can fly it in certain regimes without rudder (as you can the F1), but try to dogfight without....

and I think we define "coordinated" differently.

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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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36 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Edit: Perhaps this could help you to put the ability to dogfight the F1 with the current FM in perspective:

The Mirage F1 vs F-14 is very similar to what I experience against the Su-25 and Mig-21... So, yes, interestingly, even the Su-25 pretty easily overshoot your Mirage F1 (which is pretty funny to begin), but without the ability for the Mirage F1 to pull noze to properly reach the target... I have only one thing to say: Try yoursef a guns-only against a Su-25 and Mig-21 and, you will see if everything appears normal to you.
I know I have a biasis because I mainly come from the Mirage 2000, which is very agile and very easy to pilot, but... Honestly like the first version of the Mirage 2000 flight model appeared prolematic to me, the current state of the Mirage F1 fligt model appear problematic to me... Not dramatic, the basis is good, it simply need some adjustments here and there.


Edited by sedenion
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Su-25 has almost straight wing and two engines that means with no loads it has excellent turn abilities! Mirage F1 has 47.5° swept wing and not enough thrust weight ratio (lower than MiG-21) 0.62 on take off and 0.73 with 50% fuel. So Su-25 and A-10 is very hard opponent to any 2-3 gen jetfighters.

 

Concerning current realisation of the FM of Mirage F1 I found it excellent! It is the best jet for now in DCS with all significant features which have to be on this aerodynamic platform.

It defenetly needs coordinated turn with rudder or you'll take adverse yaw. Stalls of air intakes are brilliant! Finally we have to keep position while rolling carefully to avoid stall from wake turbulence. But stall while rolling after touching following the leader is exaggerated because leader set his throttle to IDLE and the speed is to low. Need to tune for developers!

Departures and spins are amaizing! 

It is so pleasure to fly! 


Edited by Shmal
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Мой позывной в DCS: _SkyRider_

Мой канал YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

 

My callsign on DCS is: _SkyRider_

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGdfzT7-xbgvmPwmUcCNArQ?view_as=subscriber

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7 minutes ago, Shmal said:

It is the best jet for now in DCS…

 

🤨 …. I mean, „the best“?

Is there no middle ground anymore between „this sucks“ and glorification of any new module?

Well, perhaps it‘s just old fashioned me….


Edited by Hiob
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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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3 hours ago, Nealius said:

So the question is, why does the F1 have adverse yaw at low AoA while other analog jets don't? 

Because slats, adverse yaw in F1 is a well known feature of the model, same as it is in F-4 because… the same.

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"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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11 hours ago, Hiob said:

and I think we define "coordinated" differently.

Coordinated as one definition and one definition only: no slip.

7 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Because slats

Slats cause proverse yaw.

 

7 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

adverse yaw in F1 is a well known feature

Sources? I have not been able to find any, thus the questions which still have not been answered with concrete data or explanation from an authoritative source.


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8 hours ago, Nealius said:

Coordinated (h*)as one definition and one definition only: no slip.

Really? I'm shocked! 😁

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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1 hour ago, Nealius said:

At this point it's clear from Hiob's and Ala13's interjetion of superiority/inferiority complexes in this discussion that no one wants to talk rationally about this. 

 

What? 🤨

Getting personel because you can't cope with a little bit of irony? Or is it, because I happen to disagree with you about the need for rudder in the Tomcat?


Edited by Hiob
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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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Yeah, very mannered and mature for sure. Sad it takes so short before this kind of things start. Goodbye.

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"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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  • ED Team

Hi all, 

this thread is done, if you have evidence something is wrong why not help the team out with a track replay and any evidence you have. 

If you do have a bug report to make please do so in a new thread. 

thank you

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