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Altimeter Incorrect at multiple Airfields On Syria Map


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Is this a Bug that has been reported, or is there something wrong with the altimeter only on the Syria map? When parked at, let's use Ruwayshid for example, the altimeter cannot be corrected to 0ft AGL while on the ground. The closest you can get by adjusting the Altimeter is 1000ft AGL. That is as far as the QFE will allow you to correct, and the radar (Elect) altimeter does nothing. Therefore, after take-off, your altitude is (X)+1000ft. This is the case at multiple airfields in Syria, and makes your altitude incorrect not only on take-offs, but on approaches as well. Anyone have a clue what the issue is that needs to be reported? 
Thanks! 

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That is how it works. In case the airfield is high above MSL, you might not be able to set the pressure setting low enough to get QFE. That's just how the instruments are made. Same thing will happen to you if you fly on Nevada where most of the airfields are high enough so you can't set QFE. In that case easiest thing to do is to set a pressure setting (QNE for example) and make a mental note what the offset is. For example altitude readout is 850ft, but you are on the ground. So if you do pattern at 1000ft AGL you fly at 1850ft and you are fine. 

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Don't set QFE in the A-10C, doing so is not realistic (setting QNH is required in reality to calibrate the IFFCC on takeoff). As pointed out above, it's also not physically possible to set QFE at high airfield elevations. Setting QFE can also cause issues with weapon delivery in areas with terrain elevations significantly above MSL, especially where there are major elevation changes such as mountains.

QFE can work well when flying VFR in very localised areas and with terrain elevations close to MSL (such as much of north/western Europe) it doesn't work well in other situations.

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Thanks for the answers. I suppose this question just occurred to me simply because I'm used to very mild changes in runway altitudes, and the Syria map forced me to notice this offset. So basically, you always need to check the runway elevation for where you are landing, and add your pattern altitude to  that the runway's altitude, correct? Apologies if this was a stupid question, I just don't do that much general aviation. 

 


Edited by MatzWarhog
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What I've been taught and it worked for me in DCS perfectly is following. If I can enter QFE, I use that for landing/takeoff purposes only as it's easier to fly pattern when altitude readout says correct info. If I can't, then I use QNE for landing/takeoff purposes. That way when I touch down the altimeter will read airfield elevation, so I just add pattern altitudes to that. Everywhere else, I'll be using SAS for my pressure setting. This hasn't failed me ever in DCS and from what I've gathered IRL it can get a tad more complicated 🙂

 

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7 hours ago, MatzWarhog said:

So basically, you always need to check the runway elevation for where you are landing, and add your pattern altitude to  that the runway's altitude, correct?

There are many ways to skin the cat. 😉

When I began my journey in DCS, I didn't even bother with the altimeter, flying visually all the time. Then I learned about QFE, and the altimeter reading 0 at the runway felt perfectly natural. Plus, the in-game ATC only provides QFE, so you can easily set QFE for the arrival field by calling the ATC and setting the pressure that he gives over the radio.

Then I learned about the A-10C in particular, and that it uses QNH for internal calculations, so that the altimeter will show the runway elevation above mean sea level before take-off. I've gotten used to QNH and nowadays that's what feels the most sensible to me, because it works all over the place -- unlike QFE, QNH is not tied to any particular spot. When QNH is set, the altimeter shows the aircraft's altitude above mean sea level. It just makes sense.

With the static weather presets that are most widely used in DCS missions, QNH will also be the same all over a map, so it's basically a set-it-and-forget-it thing.

In real life, air pressure is a local thing; it can be different from one place to another and it will differ over time, so when flying from one area to another, you'd have to adjust QNH to the area you're flying in. However, in commercial aviation, above all the obstacles that we're concerned with in low level flying, it doesn't make much sense to adjust QNH every 10 or so minutes during a 3+ hour flight above 20,000 feet. Plus, different aircraft would use different pressure references, making vertical separation a nightmare.

So above a certain altitude, everyone just sets the standard pressure setting of 29.92 inHg, regardless of local air pressure, and now everyone is on the same page. In DCS, this only really starts to matter when you get into real flying procedures in realistic missions, or when flying on multiplayer (with human ATC, or with realistic procedures).

So to make a long story short, my preference is QNH; just set the altimeter to read the runway elevation before takeoff and you're good (the actual QNH issued by ATC might be a bit different and your altitude might be off by 10 or 20 feet; that is perfectly normal). Since a couple of patches, DCS will preset QNH for ground starts.

To set QNH on your own, you obviously need to know the runway elevation. You can use the F10 map and point the mouse cursor over the runway; next to the coordinate display on the corner of the window, you'll find the terrain elevation.

There's a downside, and that is you can't ask the in-game ATC for QNH for your destination airport. Once airborne, you'll have no way of getting QNH, unless you started to get creative with the radar altimeter, known terrain elevation and some math. But, as I said above, most DCS missions use static weather where the air pressure is the same all over the map, and where ever you fly, QNH will be the same anyway.

 

7 hours ago, Vakarian said:

If I can't, then I use QNE for landing/takeoff purposes. That way when I touch down the altimeter will read airfield elevation, so I just add pattern altitudes to that.

Did you mean QNH there?

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8 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

There are many ways to skin the cat. 😉

When I began my journey in DCS, I didn't even bother with the altimeter, flying visually all the time. Then I learned about QFE, and the altimeter reading 0 at the runway felt perfectly natural. Plus, the in-game ATC only provides QFE, so you can easily set QFE for the arrival field by calling the ATC and setting the pressure that he gives over the radio.

Then I learned about the A-10C in particular, and that it uses QNH for internal calculations, so that the altimeter will show the runway elevation above mean sea level before take-off. I've gotten used to QNH and nowadays that's what feels the most sensible to me, because it works all over the place -- unlike QFE, QNH is not tied to any particular spot. When QNH is set, the altimeter shows the aircraft's altitude above mean sea level. It just makes sense.

With the static weather presets that are most widely used in DCS missions, QNH will also be the same all over a map, so it's basically a set-it-and-forget-it thing.

In real life, air pressure is a local thing; it can be different from one place to another and it will differ over time, so when flying from one area to another, you'd have to adjust QNH to the area you're flying in. However, in commercial aviation, above all the obstacles that we're concerned with in low level flying, it doesn't make much sense to adjust QNH every 10 or so minutes during a 3+ hour flight above 20,000 feet. Plus, different aircraft would use different pressure references, making vertical separation a nightmare.

So above a certain altitude, everyone just sets the standard pressure setting of 29.92 inHg, regardless of local air pressure, and now everyone is on the same page. In DCS, this only really starts to matter when you get into real flying procedures in realistic missions, or when flying on multiplayer (with human ATC, or with realistic procedures).

So to make a long story short, my preference is QNH; just set the altimeter to read the runway elevation before takeoff and you're good (the actual QNH issued by ATC might be a bit different and your altitude might be off by 10 or 20 feet; that is perfectly normal). Since a couple of patches, DCS will preset QNH for ground starts.

To set QNH on your own, you obviously need to know the runway elevation. You can use the F10 map and point the mouse cursor over the runway; next to the coordinate display on the corner of the window, you'll find the terrain elevation.

There's a downside, and that is you can't ask the in-game ATC for QNH for your destination airport. Once airborne, you'll have no way of getting QNH, unless you started to get creative with the radar altimeter, known terrain elevation and some math. But, as I said above, most DCS missions use static weather where the air pressure is the same all over the map, and where ever you fly, QNH will be the same anyway.

 

Did you mean QNH there?

Thank You! This concise explanation makes total sense now. I know many people, and a lot of new pilots watching landing tutorials that state to "Lower your altitude to 2,500ft" are complaining they always are hitting the ground way too early... this is a great way to explain to them why that's happening. At many airfields, especially in Nevada and Syria, 2,500ft will basically have you on the ground, runway or not. I'll be sharing this explanation. It has certainly cleared things up for me in the technical sense. I can always get the A10C on the runway, but was becoming frustrated with the confusion in altitudes. Thanks again! 


Edited by MatzWarhog
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Real world flying procedures for the A-10 is use QNH always. In the US that’s the way instrument procedures are designed. I know some places around the world they use QNE, but I’m pretty sure if US jets will be operating out of those bases the pilots have to either be specially trained to use QNE approaches (because by default they are not) or the Air Force will make its own approaches for their jets. When you takeoff your altimeter should be showing you your MSL altitude. There’s lots of reasons why that is important in the A-10 the IFFCCE and LASTE system Using it for weapons delivery calculations being a big one.
 

The altitude Yurgon talked about where everyone sets 29.92 is called the transition altitude and in the US it defaults to 18000 feet.  In Other places around the world it can vary based on location

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1 hour ago, ASAP said:

Real world flying procedures for the A-10 is use QNH always. In the US that’s the way instrument procedures are designed. I know some places around the world they use QNE, but I’m pretty sure if US jets will be operating out of those bases the pilots have to either be specially trained to use QNE approaches (because by default they are not) or the Air Force will make its own approaches for their jets. When you takeoff your altimeter should be showing you your MSL altitude. There’s lots of reasons why that is important in the A-10 the IFFCCE and LASTE system Using it for weapons delivery calculations being a big one.
 

A lot of helpful info here that I never learned elsewhere! Thanks for all the input! Maybe my kill ratio will go up too!! 

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Set QNH when less than 18K (e.g. on deck) using something like MOOSE ATIS will give you QNH, the preset value from DCS is incorrect and is actually setting QFF, you can also just look up the field elevation and set your altimeter to match that when on deck, of course this only works when you're on deck.

QNH will indicate field elevation on your altimeter when you're on deck, e.g. it will indicate ~1,870' when at Nellis AFB, then you could fly e.g. 3,500' for your overhead.

Switch from QNH to QNE (29.92) passing transition altitude (18K in most places)

QFE is rarely used in aviation as far as I'm aware, maybe in Europe or Russia it's used?


Edited by MARLAN_
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3 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

Set QNH when less than 18K (e.g. on deck) using something like MOOSE ATIS will give you QNH, the preset value from DCS is incorrect and is actually setting QFF, you can also just look up the field elevation and set your altimeter to match that when on deck, of course this only works when you're on deck.

QNH will indicate field elevation on your altimeter when you're on deck, e.g. it will indicate ~1,870' when at Nellis AFB, then you could fly e.g. 3,500' for your overhead.

Switch from QNH to QNE (29.92) passing transition altitude (18K in most places)

QFE is rarely used in aviation as far as I'm aware, maybe in Europe or Russia it's used?

 

QFE is what I meant to say every time I said QNE in my last post. My bad mixing up the terms. To the best of my knowledge Russia is the only one I know of that uses QFE. 

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18 hours ago, Vakarian said:

If I can enter QFE, I use that for landing/takeoff purposes only as it's easier to fly pattern when altitude readout says correct info. If I can't, then I use QNE for landing/takeoff purposes. That way when I touch down the altimeter will read airfield elevation, [...]

Since QNE is a slightly complicated topic (depending on whom you ask or where you look, you might get different answers as to what QNE actually is), just for clarification:

When you can't set QFE, you then set the altimeter to 29.92 on the ground, read the currently indicated runway altitude from your altimeter, and then just use that altitude as a baseline reference. Am I understanding you correctly there?


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5 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

Set QNH when less than 18K [...]

In the US. 😉

Most other countries have a transition altitude way, way lower; typical values would range from 5000 to 7000 feet, as far as I'm aware. But, as I said above, this only applies to DCS when we want to fly using realistic procedures. In addition to that, the military might decide that they do things differently and just use the same altimeter setting across an entire AO, just to ensure all aircraft use the same reference. As far as I know, that applies when the military is in charge of separation of aircraft. When military aircraft fly in normal, civilian airspace and, more importantly, under civilian ATC control, they may very well transition to flight levels above the transition altitude. Not that the A-10 is such a frequent guest near the edge of outer space above 18,000 feet... 😂

5 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

QNH will indicate field elevation on your altimeter when you're on deck, e.g. it will indicate ~1,870' when at Nellis AFB

At the threshold of runways 21L and 21R, yes; down at runways 3L and 3R, the threshold elevation is closer to 1830 feet. And because of the location of Nellis relative to Las Vegas, weather permitting, aircraft should depart away from the city, using runways 3L or 3R, so these are going to be the more common use case.

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It‘s actually not a complicated topic but there is too much about it in flight simulation generally. 
 

QNH: theoretical baro pressure at the airport at sea level, altimeter readout is actual airport elevation.

QFE: actual baro pressure at the airport, altimeter readout is zero

 

simple ops for local flying only: set the altimeter to closest 1000

 

Altimeters‘ calibration mechanic is higly sensitive and can break easily if abused. In many alimeters there is no hardstop so use the knob sensibly. 
 

Use of QFE in DCS ATC is excessive and I assume it comes from the russian background of the sim. Russian aviation uses metric units and when you use meters (1 meter is roughly 3.3 feet) you deal with smaller and less rounded numbers, rounding altitude will lead to higher seperations and wasted space (and less precision at the same time, it‘s easier to display and read 1200ft with an analogue altimeter than the same altitude on a metric altimeter in meters. Hence the habit to use QFE: airport is at zero.

 

Know your airport charts and use QNH, it‘s what you get in ATIS all around the world. If your aircraft has a radio altimeter you may use this one as well for landing, keep bank errors in mind.


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3 hours ago, Yurgon said:

Since QNE is a slightly complicated topic (depending on whom you ask or where you look, you might get different answers as to what QNE actually is), just for clarification:

When you can't set QFE, you then set the altimeter to 29.92 on the ground, read the currently indicated runway altitude from your altimeter, and then just use that altitude as a baseline reference. Am I understanding you correctly there?

 

Yep, that's correct. That's what I was taught and in DCS these two methods never failed me.

Now, before any purist grabs pitchfork, I understand that every airforce does things a little bit differently IRL there may be even some airframe specific procedures but honestly for DCS purposes I'm fine with what I wrote so far. IRL it gets a lot more complicated and it's a lot more dynamic than what we have here so why make things harder for me when it doesn't have to be like that.

As multiple people mentioned here that IRL Hog uses QNH only, I'll start using it in a Hog too when I see that using SAS is making my weapon employment go bad.

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9 hours ago, Vakarian said:

Yep, that's correct. That's what I was taught and in DCS these two methods never failed me.

Got it.

Yeah, the great thing about flight sims is that we can all just use the procedures that work best for us. I certainly do. 😉

There's just this bit of nitpicking that I have to do:

On 8/1/2022 at 10:17 AM, Vakarian said:

If I can't, then I use QNE for landing/takeoff purposes. That way when I touch down the altimeter will read airfield elevation

Strictly speaking, with the altimeter subscale set to 29.92 inHg, the altimeter will read the airfield's pressure altitude at that time.

It would read the airfield elevation if the air pressure (and temperature, and moisture) happened to be the same as in the International Standard Atmosphere right at that particular time. So in this case, the term pressure altitude (as in: the altitude above the 29.92 inHg standard datum plane) is more correct and always applies when the altimeter is set to 29.92 inHg.

Okay, sorry about the nitpicking, but I just had to point that out. 😉

Coming back to the topic at hand: Personally, I prefer QNH (so that my altimeter reads altitude above mean sea level) over QNE/pressure altitude. The great thing about QNH is that I can use DCS charts, real life charts, the F10 map, Google Earth, or just about any other reference source, and whenever an obstacle's elevation is noted, I just need to make sure that my altimeter reads more than that elevation, and I won't ever collide with it, even in thick clouds at night.

Then we have tactical applications; the elevation of a target will typically be in reference to MSL, at least for the US inventory (I believe the Viggen requires QFE for targeting, as a counterpoint). So with the altimeter set to QNH, I'll already have the same reference as the terrain elevation below me.

Another upside for QNH is that, unless the local air pressure is extremely low or extremely high, it works all over the world. Taking off from Nellis runway 3L at around 1,830 ft MSL with a fairly low local air pressure? No problem setting QNH. Taking off from Lukla at over 9,000 ft MSL? Still no problem setting QNH in the Himalayas. So unlike QFE, QNH is independent of an airport's elevation (as far as the altimeter subscale is concerned).

And then, when I fly out of the same airport, I only need to memorize that airport's elevation once. Use the airfield's elevation to set altimeter to QNH, done. At the runway threshold, the altimeter will always show the same value.

Contrasting that with pressure altitude, it'll change over time with the local air pressure. So one day I might take off from a pressure altitude of, say, 500 feet, the next day on the very same runway it might be 250 feet, the next day it might be 720 feet, and now every single day I need to remember the airfield's current pressure altitude and do some mental math to figure out the pressure altitude for a 1000 ft AGL traffic pattern. And then in order to set up for a straight-in approach with a nice 3 degree glideslope 3000 feet above the runway at 10 nautical miles, today those 3000 feet correspond to a pressure altitude of... nah, sorry, that just isn't for me. 😂

So, QNH all the way up to the transition altitude, then transition to flight levels with 29.92 inHg set on the altimeter subscale, and once passing below the transition level, get back to QNH. It's actually pretty easy. 🍻


Edited by Yurgon
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1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

Got it.

Yeah, the great thing about flight sims is that we can all just use the procedures that work best for us. I certainly do. 😉

There's just this bit of nitpicking that I have to do:

Strictly speaking, with the altimeter subscale set to 29.92 inHg, the altimeter will read the airfield's pressure altitude at that time.

It would read the airfield elevation if the air pressure (and temperature, and moisture) happened to be the same as in the International Standard Atmosphere right at that particular time. So in this case, the term pressure altitude (as in: the altitude above the 29.92 inHg standard datum plane) is more correct and always applies when the altimeter is set to 29.92 inHg.

Okay, sorry about the nitpicking, but I just had to point that out. 😉

Coming back to the topic at hand: Personally, I prefer QNH (so that my altimeter reads altitude above mean sea level) over QNE/pressure altitude. The great thing about QNH is that I can use DCS charts, real life charts, the F10 map, Google Earth, or just about any other reference source, and whenever an obstacle's elevation is noted, I just need to make sure that my altimeter reads more than that elevation, and I won't ever collide with it, even in thick clouds at night.

Then we have tactical applications; the elevation of a target will typically be in reference to MSL, at least for the US inventory (I believe the Viggen requires QFE for targeting, as a counterpoint). So with the altimeter set to QNH, I'll already have the same reference as the terrain elevation below me.

Another upside for QNH is that, unless the local air pressure is extremely low or extremely high, it works all over the world. Taking off from Nellis runway 3L at around 1,830 ft MSL with a fairly low local air pressure? No problem setting QNH. Taking off from Lukla at over 9,000 ft MSL? Still no problem setting QNH in the Himalayas. So unlike QFE, QNH is independent of an airport's elevation (as far as the altimeter subscale is concerned).

And then, when I fly out of the same airport, I only need to memorize that airport's elevation once. Use the airfield's elevation to set altimeter to QNH, done. At the runway threshold, the altimeter will always show the same value.

Contrasting that with pressure altitude, it'll change over time with the local air pressure. So one day I might take off from a pressure altitude of, say, 500 feet, the next day on the very same runway it might be 250 feet, the next day it might be 720 feet, and now every single day I need to remember the airfield's current pressure altitude and do some mental math to figure out the pressure altitude for a 1000 ft AGL traffic pattern. And then in order to set up for a straight-in approach with a nice 3 degree glideslope 3000 feet above the runway at 10 nautical miles, today those 3000 feet correspond to a pressure altitude of... nah, sorry, that just isn't for me. 😂

So, QNH all the way up to the transition altitude, then transition to flight levels with 29.92 inHg set on the altimeter subscale, and once passing below the transition level, get back to QNH. It's actually pretty easy. 🍻

 

The biggest advantage of using "QNH" is that the altimeter setting is always in the DCS briefing and works over the entire map.  Wish it worked that way in real life 🤪

In US general aviation, when you're on the ground at an airport with no ATIS or automatic weather info, the FAA actually recommends pilots set the altimeter to the known airfield elevation, so it's not just a DCS workaround either 🙂

 

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The A-10 uses altimeter in a specific way to calibrate the computer's knowledge of ownship altitude. It takes a "snapshot" during the takeoff roll when wheel speed is I think passing 50 knots and uses this for calibration purposes plus at some other times. You can't just set A-10 altimeter to anything without risk of screwing up the computer system's idea of altitude. It's not a simple crop duster.

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5 hours ago, Frederf said:

The A-10 uses altimeter in a specific way to calibrate the computer's knowledge of ownship altitude. It takes a "snapshot" during the takeoff roll when wheel speed is I think passing 50 knots and uses this for calibration purposes plus at some other times. You can't just set A-10 altimeter to anything without risk of screwing up the computer system's idea of altitude. It's not a simple crop duster.

^ this is spot on.  This is not at all technique where pilots can pick and choose how they want to do it in real life. A correct altimeter setting is 100% procedure. The jet compares GPS derived altitude and your barometric altitude to do a lot of the background calculations for weapons delivery.  Obviously this is a video game so do what you want but if you like realism…

Your altimeter should be set to QNH because that’s the way the airplane is designed to operate and that’s the way the flying world does it. When tactically employing weapons it should be QNH. In real life any time you are in a MOA or on a range or in combat every aircraft is on the same altimeter setting and it’s local QNH. The only time you shouldn’t be using QNH is on a cross cross country flight and your above the transition level where everyone is using 29.92. You set it back to QNH as soon as you descend below the transition level.

in real life you get the local altimeter setting from the ATIS, ATC, or even the JTAC when you get routing & safety of flight info when you check in with them. To get the next best thing for DCS make sure your altimeter is reading the same as the runways touchdown zone elevation when you are lined up for takeoff. Fortunately that works across the AO. 


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