Mirage F1EE vs F1CT

[tn_prvteye]

I realize we're not getting a flyable CT variant, but I was curious how close the EE will be to the CT?  Would it make a suitable stand-in?  I also know it won't have the Laser Rangefinder under the nose, but that can be "faked" just for looks, at least.

I'm having trouble finding info on the cockpit of the CT (probably why it won't be flyable)...I was wondering if anyone knew.

[sedenion]

I would ask the same question about the F1C, since I guess the differences between F1C and F1CE are very minors (I think it is only a mater of Sidewinder)... Anyway here is the cockpit of F1CT... it appear modernized compared to current CE variant (Central weapon panel, HUD and stick remind the 2000C). And here is the F1C cockpit (with missing HUD, apparently) and here, it appear to be exactly the same as the F1CE...

Edited August 1, 2022 by sedenion

[TLTeo]

My guess is that the F1M will be a better stand in, since both are end-of-life updated airframes.

[Kev2go]

On 8/1/2022 at 5:08 PM, sedenion said:

I would ask the same question about the F1C, since I guess the differences between F1C and F1CE are very minors (I think it is only a mater of Sidewinder)... Anyway here is the cockpit of F1CT... it appear modernized compared to current CE variant (Central weapon panel, HUD and stick remind the 2000C). And here is the F1C cockpit (with missing HUD, apparently) and here, it appear to be exactly the same as the F1CE...

 

the Mirage F1CE had a integrated countermeasure system, whereas the French air force Mirage F1C's had to carry external  countermeasure pods for chaff and flare.

[grim_reaper68]

Hi 

 

The Mirage F1CT has an telemeter under the nose. 

[Bremspropeller]

On 8/4/2022 at 9:05 PM, Kev2go said:

the Mirage F1CE had a integrated countermeasure system, whereas the French air force Mirage F1C's had to carry external  countermeasure pods for chaff and flare.

That's why the CR and CT could carrythe dispensers in their armpits:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/France-Air-Force/Dassault-Mirage-F1CT/1305896/L

Dayum, I'd love to have those dual bomb-racks!

[grim_reaper68]

Hi 

 

The Mirage F1CT has an telemeter under the nose. 

 

The F1 CT (and maybe the CR too) had phimat contermeasure pod and could carry 2 corail pods under the wings. It's visible on the picture posted by Bremspropeller between the fuselage and the pylon. 

[Midair]

https://www.airliners.net/photo/France-Air-Force/Dassault-Mirage-F1CT/2314755/L?qsp=eJxtjbEOwjAMRP/FcwYqIEA2ujCWgR%2BwHAORShvZHqiq/jshlZjYTu%2Bd7magcTB%2B223KDAGUUegJDjIKvhTCDJiEBO/WoiZaa7vN/uR%2B4sIDy38FoTl6f3Cgo1g7lYOIxmcizsYRVt5JZPkqVqrPj7LTlMByrRm2vvCYNPdYN9gw9bAsH/A%2BPqo%3D

[Bremspropeller]

On 8/4/2022 at 9:05 PM, Kev2go said:

the Mirage F1CE had a integrated countermeasure system, whereas the French air force Mirage F1C's had to carry external  countermeasure pods for chaff and flare.

I just came across a couple of photos of F1C-200s in Africa that had flares in their braking-chute housing (instead of the chute), counting 14 Flares in total.

Check out those two Cambrai birds:

1/12 Cambrésis

 

3/12 Cornouaille

It's hard to see from this angle,but the chute-cap isn't there and instead the "blunt ended" flare-canister is installed.

Both jets are armed with two Magic 1s and two Super 530Fs.

 

Edit: Seems to be called a "Lacroix" installation...

Edited October 8, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Aircul]

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Aircul

[Stratos]

And they lost their landing chute hability?

[Bremspropeller]

34 minutes ago, Stratos said:

And they lost their landing chute hability?

Yes, just like with the Éclair on the M2000C.

[Kev2go]

On 10/8/2022 at 9:50 AM, Bremspropeller said:

I just came across a couple of photos of F1C-200s in Africa that had flares in their braking-chute housing (instead of the chute), counting 14 Flares in total.

Check out those two Cambrai birds:

1/12 Cambrésis

 

3/12 Cornouaille

It's hard to see from this angle,but the chute-cap isn't there and instead the "blunt ended" flare-canister is installed.

Both jets are armed with two Magic 1s and two Super 530Fs.

 

Edit: Seems to be called a "Lacroix" installation...

 

 

obviously different system, and retrofit relative to F1CE which does not sacrifice landing chute for flares. 

[Bremspropeller]

31 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

obviously different system, and retrofit relative to F1CE which does not sacrifice landing chute for flares. 

The F1CE also had their system retrofit later on.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Spain-Air-Force/Dassault-Mirage-F1CE/1301868/L

 

The AdlA normally used CM pods, but those would naturally have gone to the low-level strikers (Jaguars) with some priority, when deployed abroad. Hence the chute-installation of the F1C-200s and the F1CRs seen above. The Corail installation later solved the problem elegantly.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Midair]

The  "Lacroix" installation was mount on the French Jaguar aswell. I think it's a french technician who create this for the Jaguar at the beginning.

[Aircul]

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Aircul

[Kev2go]

On 10/9/2022 at 1:57 PM, Bremspropeller said:

The F1CE also had their system retrofit later on.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Spain-Air-Force/Dassault-Mirage-F1CE/1301868/L

In sense sure because these aircraft are not locally produced in Spain via License agreement but produced in France and aquired from them.

 i would not consider it a "retro" fit considering An/ALE 40 in the way it is installed, is a elegant solution since it is directly integrated into conformal area of the fuselage airframe, like most of us familiar with more modern aircraft designs. So just because it was not installed day 1 into initial batches Mirage F1CE's delivered to spain in 1975-76, merely makes it a later production ( or technically post production refit since its an American system installed into a French Aircraft, and not locally produced via liscense in Spain) 

 

 

https://www.defensa.com/reportajes/llanos-casa-ultimos-mirage-espanoles

 

The Mirage F1CE's delivered to spain were between 1975 and 1983 in 3 batches with some variance in avionics. ( last batch of 20 F1CE was between 1980 and 1983) 

 

So that image you posted is merely an example of one the remaining earlier batches ( aircraft registration # 14/22), that was still flying along side later mirage F1CE  examples that did have AN/ALE40, before any refits were made. Typically you only see images the earlier aircraft No with ALE40, is post cold war when they have the Nato Grey paintscheme. 

 

On 10/9/2022 at 1:57 PM, Bremspropeller said:

 

The AdlA normally used CM pods, but those would naturally have gone to the low-level strikers (Jaguars) with some priority, when deployed abroad. Hence the chute-installation of the F1C-200s and the F1CRs seen above. The Corail installation later solved the problem elegantly.

 

 

One is a band aid solution add on ( external pods) limiting payload options, the other is  still something of  retrofit solution as its stuffed into where Parachute should be. ( sacrificing 1 feature for another) . 

 

Again even for fighter/ Interceptor i find it unusual there was no interest in having a integrated CM suite. considering it is really unusual for an Aircraft to be flying without countermeasures in the 80s no less .

 

I hate to digress but i even found it unusual that It really took until S5 batch of Mirage 2000C to get Integrated CM suite (spirale) , with earlier batches needing to have Eclair rushed in as add on. so it could operate with countermeasures in the Gulf war.

 

 

On 10/2/2022 at 3:42 PM, Bremspropeller said:

That's why the CR and CT could carrythe dispensers in their armpits:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/France-Air-Force/Dassault-Mirage-F1CT/1305896/L

Dayum, I'd love to have those dual bomb-racks!

 

Not exactly a fair comparison as mirage F1CT modernization was done in the late 80s and not operational until the early 90s . At a time when France was already having Mirage 2000's operational. 

 

Mirage F1CE is effectively  an OG F1C but with Aim9 compatibility and version that had  integrated AN/ALE40 suite.

 

this cockpit avionics level is more on par what you see in a Mirage 2000

 

 

So in Short Mirage F1CT is still more capable platform than Mirage F1EE, which is basically going amount to a Mirage F1CE with External refuel probe and a INS navigation system, and I think a more modern RWR.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Kev2go

[Major_Shepard]

The last photo is a F1-CR cockpit with radar and camera imaging display on the right hand side.

 F1-CT and F1-CR also have more air-ground capabilities like CCIP/CCRP compare to the F1-EE.

They also received GPS navigation in the early 2000'

Edited October 12, 2022 by Major_Shepard

[Bremspropeller]

On 10/11/2022 at 5:43 AM, Kev2go said:

In sense sure because these aircraft are not locally produced in Spain via License agreement but produced in France and aquired from them.

 i would not consider it a "retro" fit considering An/ALE 40 in the way it is installed, is a elegant solution since it is directly integrated into conformal area of the fuselage airframe, like most of us familiar with more modern aircraft designs. So just because it was not installed day 1 into initial batches Mirage F1CE's delivered to spain in 1975-76, merely makes it a later production ( or technically post production refit since its an American system installed into a French Aircraft, and not locally produced via liscense in Spain) 

 

 

https://www.defensa.com/reportajes/llanos-casa-ultimos-mirage-espanoles

 

The Mirage F1CE's delivered to spain were between 1975 and 1983 in 3 batches with some variance in avionics. ( last batch of 20 F1CE was between 1980 and 1983) 

 

So that image you posted is merely an example of one the remaining earlier batches ( aircraft registration # 14/22), that was still flying along side later mirage F1CE  examples that did have AN/ALE40, before any refits were made. Typically you only see images the earlier aircraft No with ALE40, is post cold war when they have the Nato Grey paintscheme.

 

If it wasn't in the original tranche delivery-specs, it's a retrofit, upgraded to production standards. No need for splitting hairs.

On 10/11/2022 at 5:43 AM, Kev2go said:

One is a band aid solution add on ( external pods) limiting payload options, the other is  still something of  retrofit solution as its stuffed into where Parachute should be. ( sacrificing 1 feature for another) . 

 

Again even for fighter/ Interceptor i find it unusual there was no interest in having a integrated CM suite. considering it is really unusual for an Aircraft to be flying without countermeasures in the 80s no less .

 

I hate to digress but i even found it unusual that It really took until S5 batch of Mirage 2000C to get Integrated CM suite (spirale) , with earlier batches needing to have Eclair rushed in as add on. so it could operate with countermeasures in the Gulf war.

You should ask the M IIIC guys about CMs in Djibouti '88, then...

The F1C and M2kC were CAFDA airplanes in air-defense, behind the NATO air defense belt in West Germany (where the 'merricans, Canadians, Brits and Germans were going to get a go first). There wasn't that much of a threat besides the odd bomber coming through. The need for countermeasures for those aircraft was only recognized during the out of area work in Africa. Just like the refuelability was an afterthought and installed during the late 70s into the F1C-200s.

The FATAC Jaguars got most of the pods, because they were supposed to play in the mud, eating SAMs. RAF Jaguars (as well as Tornados) had to use external CMs and jamming through Desert Staorm (pardon: Granby) and had to content with that stuff till the end of their service-lives. Nothing stecial there.

The South Africans had an even better idea, by the way - put CM into the ventral fins...

On 10/11/2022 at 5:43 AM, Kev2go said:

Not exactly a fair comparison as mirage F1CT modernization was done in the late 80s and not operational until the early 90s . At a time when France was already having Mirage 2000's operational. 

 

Mirage F1CE is effectively  an OG F1C but with Aim9 compatibility and version that had  integrated AN/ALE40 suite.

 

this cockpit avionics level is more on par what you see in a Mirage 2000

Has nothing to do with fairness. And it's not a comparison at all. I was just adding additional info.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Kev2go]

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

If it wasn't in the original tranche delivery-specs, it's a retrofit, upgraded to production standards. No need for splitting hairs.

You should ask the M IIIC guys about CMs in Djibouti '88, then...

The F1C and M2kC were CAFDA airplanes in air-defense, behind the NATO air defense belt in West Germany (where the 'merricans, Canadians, Brits and Germans were going to get a go first). There wasn't that much of a threat besides the odd bomber coming through. The need for countermeasures for those aircraft was only recognized during the out of area work in Africa. Just like the refuelability was an afterthought and installed during the late 70s into the F1C-200s.

 

Then again this is quite inconsistent with the logic of including A capable RWR ( at least more advanced then older BF) and  on top of that including a Integrated jamming suite ( sabre) but no countermeasures. IF all you expect to use your air defense fighter is against the " odd bomber" then you wouldn't need a EW jamming suite let alone a more advanced RWR. Thats only necessary are only if you expecting use against enemy fighters, or to contend with operating in a environment with a presence of hostile Air to Surface systems. But then if thats the case you also aught to have the foresight to incorporate countermeasures in some form.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

The FATAC Jaguars got most of the pods, because they were supposed to play in the mud, eating SAMs. RAF Jaguars (as well as Tornados) had to use external CMs and jamming through Desert Staorm (pardon: Granby) and had to content with that stuff till the end of their service-lives. Nothing stecial there.

 

Jaguar is an older design it gets a pass, not a 4th gen aircraft.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Kev2go

[Bremspropeller]

12 hours ago, Kev2go said:

Jaguar is an older design it gets a pass, not a 4th gen aircraft.

The F1 and Jag are actually quite contemporary. Also, the Tornado is just a bit newer. They're all fairly small aircraft, ostly operated by countries with farly tight budgets and there's no US military behind those jets, paying for most of the (retro) fits.

I think the continuous updates to the F1 (even though late to come) showthe commitment, France had with the airframe.

[Bremspropeller]

12 hours ago, Kev2go said:

Then again this is quite inconsistent with the logic of including A capable RWR ( at least more advanced then older BF) and  on top of that including a Integrated jamming suite ( sabre) but no countermeasures. IF all you expect to use your air defense fighter is against the " odd bomber" then you wouldn't need a EW jamming suite let alone a more advanced RWR. Thats only necessary are only if you expecting use against enemy fighters, or to contend with operating in a environment with a presence of hostile Air to Surface systems. But then if thats the case you also aught to have the foresight to incorporate countermeasures in some form.

None of those are F1C or F1C-200 features which were the CAFDA airframes. 

The F1CR and CT were FATAC, showing a need for defenses against fighters. The Spanish were a totally different gig.

[Kev2go]

On 10/13/2022 at 12:56 PM, Bremspropeller said:

The F1 and Jag are actually quite contemporary. Also, the Tornado is just a bit newer. They're all fairly small aircraft, ostly operated by countries with farly tight budgets and there's no US military behind those jets, paying for most of the (retro) fits.

I think the continuous updates to the F1 (even though late to come) showthe commitment, France had with the airframe.

On 10/13/2022 at 1:04 PM, Bremspropeller said:

None of those are F1C or F1C-200 features which were the CAFDA airframes. 

The F1CR and CT were FATAC, showing a need for defenses against fighters. The Spanish were a totally different gig.

I was obviously referring to m2000 of which you said is a cafda plane and thus not needing cm

 

And i pointed out i am scratching my head thinking it is inconsistent reasoning to include a integrated ew suite  which includes more advanced rwr and a integrated  jammer  but not include countermeasures along with the Mirage 2000. ( at least not until eclair retrofit or spriale on s5)

So . If your putting the effort to integrate jammer into the airframe it's obvious the use is against other fighters or surface to air threats, because it's not necessary against bomber threats.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Kev2go

[Bremspropeller]

7 hours ago, Kev2go said:

I was obviously reffering to m2000 of which you said is a cafda plane and thus not needing cm

If you were doing it obviously, it would have been obvious.

7 hours ago, Kev2go said:

And i pointed out i am scratching my head thinking itd inconsistent reasoning to include a integrated ew suite  which includes more advanced rwr and a integrated  jammer  but not include countermeasures along with it. ( at least not until eclair rerofit or spriale on s5)

So . If your putting the effort to integrate jammer into the airframe it's obvious the use is against other fighters or surface to air threats, because itz not nessesary against bomber threats.

Cash is tight at times. Seems like they were trying to fit the Mirage 2000C Serval RWR into the F1CT, but didn't because of flutter issues. Doing the obvious isn't always an option when cash is tight. The fact that the CT programme dragged on for almost a decade, before being finalised, also shows that money wasn't being grown on trees.

When the F1C was introduced, it had no RWR whatsoever.

I think it's important to note, how crappy the R3S was and how much of a step forward the soviet (read: non-american) missles made in the late 70s/ early 80s were doing. During the mid 80s with the MiG-23ML was the first time the soviet aircraft had a credible FWD quarter missile threat against western aircraft with the R-24 and R-60 combo. Hence the steep rise in necessity of expendable CMs. That's just me thinking aloud, but I do think there's something in this thought.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Bremspropeller]

Seems like the early tranche "straight" F1C never got any RWRs.

Two 'Voltige Victor' F1Cs in Fairford '98. No RWRs. One is aircraft No°32, the other is No°52:

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1205143

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1158101

 

Aircraft No°62 in 2000:

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1033359

 

Aircraft No°5 in 2002 - no RWR (note that in the second picture No°512 (F1B) does have an RWR)

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1556514

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1597263

 

Aircraft No°24 in 2000

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1192892

The same aircraft, 26 years before:

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1180749

 

Here's a mystery with some 1/12 birds in '79. Aircraft 39, 55 and 60 all have no RWRs. Aircraft 46 (last picture), however, does have one:

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1162388

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1162386

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1162390

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1162387

Good old No°5 used to be with 1/12 - no RWR in 1991:

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1158101

 

Anybody have a backstory on the RWR retrofit in 46? Seems to be the combo-breaker here...

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bremspropeller