Information about R-60 Missiles used as air to ground missile.

[Varioss]

Hello,
I am looking for any kind of manuals, books, videos or any other source (preferably official soviet ones) that talks about usage of R-60/R-60M missiles on Mi-24 (or other soviet airplanes/helicopters) against ground targets. Sources in russians are okay.

Thanks for all responses.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Varioss

[SUBS17]

R-60 is for aircraft only it is a Stinger missile.

[Varioss]

3 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

R-60 is for aircraft only it is a Stinger missile.

This is just wrong. Not sure what you mean by "Stinger missile", it's an russian missile that predates the stinger. But R-60 has an Infrared seeker it doesn't matter if the target is a ground vehicle or an aircraft. If it sees a heat-signature you can shoot at it. Mi-24 even has ground option on the A2A panel.

[SUBS17]

7 hours ago, Varioss said:

This is just wrong. Not sure what you mean by "Stinger missile", it's an russian missile that predates the stinger. But R-60 has an Infrared seeker it doesn't matter if the target is a ground vehicle or an aircraft. If it sees a heat-signature you can shoot at it. Mi-24 even has ground option on the A2A panel.

The only difference is the motor, it is not designed for Ground Targets. I do not think that the SEEKER would lock onto a ground target. The R60 and the Stinger are very good missiles but it would not hit a ground target because of the SEEKER. UNLOCKED it would go up and then down and not accurately hit anything. 

[Dragon1-1]

You won't find manuals for R-60 air to ground use because the R-60 was designed as an AA missile. You can, however, find anecdote, because they were used that way, sort of. Specifically, the story I heard was about the R-60 being used as a very ghetto TGP against Taliban in Afghan, who drove their trucks at night with lights off. So, since the Hind had no night vision equipment, so they took an R-60 on one of the pylons and flew along the routes listening for a tone change, indicating something hot on the ground. This was told to me by someone else on another forum, so I don't have any better source. I also don't know what they did afterwards, but presumably they dropped a parachute flare and hit the Taliban with rockets and gun. I don't think they actually shot their R-60 at them.

Early IR AAMs can be used against ground targets simply by locking something on the ground and firing. They'll go straight to target and hit it. Their warhead was too small to actually do much damage in such a situation, but a soft-skinned vehicle would be destroyed.

[Varioss]

9 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

The only difference is the motor, it is not designed for Ground Targets. I do not think that the SEEKER would lock onto a ground target. The R60 and the Stinger are very good missiles but it would not hit a ground target because of the SEEKER. UNLOCKED it would go up and then down and not accurately hit anything. 

I did not ask if you "think" it's possible. It is possible and I asked for sources for that. If you aren't 100% sure about something maybe it would be the best if you didn't respond at all.

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You won't find manuals for R-60 air to ground use because the R-60 was designed as an AA missile. You can, however, find anecdote, because they were used that way, sort of. Specifically, the story I heard was about the R-60 being used as a very ghetto TGP against Taliban in Afghan, who drove their trucks at night with lights off. So, since the Hind had no night vision equipment, so they took an R-60 on one of the pylons and flew along the routes listening for a tone change, indicating something hot on the ground. This was told to me by someone else on another forum, so I don't have any better source. I also don't know what they did afterwards, but presumably they dropped a parachute flare and hit the Taliban with rockets and gun. I don't think they actually shot their R-60 at them.

Early IR AAMs can be used against ground targets simply by locking something on the ground and firing. They'll go straight to target and hit it. Their warhead was too small to actually do much damage in such a situation, but a soft-skinned vehicle would be destroyed.

I assumed since there is a "ground" switch in the Mi-24 there could be some mention in the manuals about what it does. I am also looking for other sources like magazines that may talked about it.

[Dragon1-1]

3 hours ago, Varioss said:

I assumed since there is a "ground" switch in the Mi-24 there could be some mention in the manuals about what it does. I am also looking for other sources like magazines that may talked about it.

It might well refer to the the helicopter being on the ground, not the target. Most aircraft that carry heaters have some sort of lockout to prevent them from activating the seeker on the ground, and a switch to override that lockout in case the missile needs to be ground tested. I don't know if that's what it does, but it seems likely. 

[SUBS17]

Ground Switch is that a WEIGHT ON WHEELS OVERIDE to Launch the R60?

[SUBS17]

11 hours ago, Varioss said:

I did not ask if you "think" it's possible. It is possible and I asked for sources for that. If you aren't 100% sure about something maybe it would be the best if you didn't respond at all.

I assumed since there is a "ground" switch in the Mi-24 there could be some mention in the manuals about what it does. I am also looking for other sources like magazines that may talked about it.

The SEEKER only looks for Air targets, there are some Anti Tank missiles that can hit air targets but not the other way around with Air to Air missiles. The SEEKER looks for the aircraft shape, it would not actually spot a tank. It would not fly accurately enough to hit a ground target. The explosive in an R60 would damage or destroy a soft skinned vehicle but it would not hit one as it needs MISSILE LOCK TO ARM THE FUSE or else it becomes a CANNON BALL and not EXPLODE! You need to IN REAL LIFE to use MISSILE OVERIDE unlike DCS WITH ALL AIR TO AIR MISSILES in order for your MISSILE in a real aircraft including AIM 9 to LAUNCH WITHOUT MISSILE LOCK! I hope that clears it up, are you going to go to the range and try it with a real Mi24?

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

The SEEKER looks for the aircraft shape, it would not actually spot a tank. It would not fly accurately enough to hit a ground target.

No it doesn't. The R-60 is way too primitive to have any sort of shape recognition. Hot/not hot is all it knows. The only requirement for a ground target to be hit is for it to be hotter than the rest of the ground, to a sufficient degree that the seeker will see it.

8 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

The explosive in an R60 would damage or destroy a soft skinned vehicle but it would not hit one as it needs MISSILE LOCK TO ARM THE FUSE or else it becomes a CANNON BALL and not EXPLODE!

False. If you dumb-fire the R-60, it'll explode. Again, it's too primitive for things like "arm on missile lock". See below for why's that, the missile is armed the moment it leaves the rail, always. Yes, this means the pilot is responsible for range safety, there had been accidents related to this. In general, if it doesn't have a fuse setting that you can control, like bombs do, you can assume it goes hot right off the rail.

8 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

You need to IN REAL LIFE to use MISSILE OVERIDE unlike DCS WITH ALL AIR TO AIR MISSILES in order for your MISSILE in a real aircraft including AIM 9 to LAUNCH WITHOUT MISSILE LOCK!

False again. This is airframe-dependent, and most will let you launch a missile without a lock just fine. Not only that, an older heater like the R-60 doesn't actually know if it's locked or not. It's not a binary "locked-not locked" thing, any time the tone changes even slightly, it has detected something that it can track. Whether it's the sun, an enemy aircraft, a flare or a tank's exhaust, it doesn't care. More modern missiles like the AIM-9X do care, and have filters preventing them from locking onto things they're not supposed to, but even they won't refuse to launch without a lock in most cases.

It's pretty clear you know nothing about how missiles work IRL. R-60 is an old missile, and the Hind is an old helo. Electronics to implement the stuff you think it can do would weigh more than the missile itself, if made with technology of the time. So would you please refrain from muddling the waters with your bogus "information"? And lay off the caps lock while at it, it's not helping your case.

[Varioss]

11 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

Ground Switch is that a WEIGHT ON WHEELS OVERIDE to Launch the R60?

11 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

The SEEKER only looks for Air targets, there are some Anti Tank missiles that can hit air targets but not the other way around with Air to Air missiles. The SEEKER looks for the aircraft shape, it would not actually spot a tank. It would not fly accurately enough to hit a ground target. The explosive in an R60 would damage or destroy a soft skinned vehicle but it would not hit one as it needs MISSILE LOCK TO ARM THE FUSE or else it becomes a CANNON BALL and not EXPLODE! You need to IN REAL LIFE to use MISSILE OVERIDE unlike DCS WITH ALL AIR TO AIR MISSILES in order for your MISSILE in a real aircraft including AIM 9 to LAUNCH WITHOUT MISSILE LOCK! I hope that clears it up, are you going to go to the range and try it with a real Mi24?

Even if you need people to SCREAM to you irl due to your deafness that comes with your age you don't need to do that in the internet. Also it seems soviet's r-60s were decades ahead of it's times with that "shape locking" and only AIM-9X caught up to it... I wonder why they replaced it with r-73 if it was so ahed of it's times...

19 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It might well refer to the the helicopter being on the ground, not the target. Most aircraft that carry heaters have some sort of lockout to prevent them from activating the seeker on the ground, and a switch to override that lockout in case the missile needs to be ground tested. I don't know if that's what it does, but it seems likely. 

I looked further a bit and it indeed may be to cage the seeker on the ground. Shame there seems to be 0 sources backing that capabilities up.

[Dragon1-1]

21 minutes ago, Varioss said:

I looked further a bit and it indeed may be to cage the seeker on the ground. Shame there seems to be 0 sources backing that capabilities up.

It's probably in some dusty Russian manual, hopefully ED will update the English one for the Hind with the info. It is a rather essential feature of an IR missile system (particularly an oldie like an R-60), and I don't know of any other switch that could serve that role.

As far as targeting goes, the R-60 really doesn't have a way of knowing if the target is on the ground, nor does it have a reason to care. Russians do like flexibility in their hardware, even today they sometimes use their SAMs as rocket artillery, or their anti-ship missiles to (inaccurately, but still) attack ground-based targets. I think air to ground capability was an intended feature of the R-60, even if it's not its main role.

[Varioss]

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's probably in some dusty Russian manual, hopefully ED will update the English one for the Hind with the info. It is a rather essential feature of an IR missile system (particularly an oldie like an R-60), and I don't know of any other switch that could serve that role.

As far as targeting goes, the R-60 really doesn't have a way of knowing if the target is on the ground, nor does it have a reason to care. Russians do like flexibility in their hardware, even today they sometimes use their SAMs as rocket artillery, or their anti-ship missiles to (inaccurately, but still) attack ground-based targets. I think air to ground capability was an intended feature of the R-60, even if it's not its main role.

I went in game and found out 2 things:

1. The tooltip. It's seems to indeed be a switch to specify the ground targets and not that the aircraft is in the air
2. After setting it to GND position I could still lock on target and fire so it's 100% not some kind of safety/caging switch.

I feel like there is no difference in the fuzing in 2 modes. Maybe it's something that's not yet implemented.

[Dragon1-1]

24 minutes ago, Varioss said:

After setting it to GND position I could still lock on target and fire so it's 100% not some kind of safety/caging switch.

It could still be a ground uncage (which would do nothing in the air, just enable the missile with weigh on wheels), and the tooltip is not necessarily correct, but if it is, then I'd imagine it would disable the proximity fuze, so that the backup impact fuze is used. This would make the warhead slightly more effective against ground targets. DCS simulation of proximity fuzes is sketchy (in fact, I'm not sure they are simulated at all), so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work in the sim.

I wouldn't past it past the Russians to put in a fuzing mode switch like this. Sidewinders could also be used for air to ground, and indeed, the Sidearm is basically an early Sidewinder with an ARM seeker head. With a 3-4kg warhead you're not going to do a whole lot of damage, but it'll still demolish a truck if it hits one.

[SUBS17]

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

No it doesn't. The R-60 is way too primitive to have any sort of shape recognition. Hot/not hot is all it knows. The only requirement for a ground target to be hit is for it to be hotter than the rest of the ground, to a sufficient degree that the seeker will see it.

False. If you dumb-fire the R-60, it'll explode. Again, it's too primitive for things like "arm on missile lock". See below for why's that, the missile is armed the moment it leaves the rail, always. Yes, this means the pilot is responsible for range safety, there had been accidents related to this. In general, if it doesn't have a fuse setting that you can control, like bombs do, you can assume it goes hot right off the rail.

False again. This is airframe-dependent, and most will let you launch a missile without a lock just fine. Not only that, an older heater like the R-60 doesn't actually know if it's locked or not. It's not a binary "locked-not locked" thing, any time the tone changes even slightly, it has detected something that it can track. Whether it's the sun, an enemy aircraft, a flare or a tank's exhaust, it doesn't care. More modern missiles like the AIM-9X do care, and have filters preventing them from locking onto things they're not supposed to, but even they won't refuse to launch without a lock in most cases.

It's pretty clear you know nothing about how missiles work IRL. R-60 is an old missile, and the Hind is an old helo. Electronics to implement the stuff you think it can do would weigh more than the missile itself, if made with technology of the time. So would you please refrain from muddling the waters with your bogus "information"? And lay off the caps lock while at it, it's not helping your case.

The fuse requires a FIRING SOLUTION in order to arm and if it does not all that the OVERIDE would do is fire the rocket motor. The fuse requires a missile lock in order to know the target distance and explode. There are SAFETY CIRCUITS inside the missile to prevent the warhead exploding by accident and that is what stops you the person with an R60 getting the rocket to explode if it hits a tank. There are versions of the missile that have an Air to Ground fuse like you see on some movies. It is like an Aim 9 for Air to Ground those use Laser guidance in order to hit targets and have a different shaped charge. So it is not a heat seeker but looks the same as an Aim 9 and has a different warhead. But you will not see those here.

[Dragon1-1]

38 minutes ago, SUBS17 said:

There are SAFETY CIRCUITS inside the missile to prevent the warhead exploding by accident and that is what stops you the person with an R60 getting the rocket to explode if it hits a tank.

No, there are not. The safety circuits are disengaged when the missile is launched. They definitely do not require a target lock, because as I said, physics themselves mean it is not really possible to implement such a circuit. 

Also, the R-60 will lock on a tank or a truck just fine, so even if there was such a safety, it doesn't prevent it from hitting ground targets. You have no idea what you're talking about.

39 minutes ago, SUBS17 said:

It is like an Aim 9 for Air to Ground those use Laser guidance in order to hit targets and have a different shaped charge.

You must have been confused by the fact AIM-9 uses laser ranging in its proximity fuze. No variant of the AIM-9 has ever used laser guidance, unless you consider a Zuni with APKWS a Sidewinder variant. There was an experimental air to ground version of the AIM-9 (called Focus), but it was IR-guided, just like any other Sidewinder, and it did not enter service.

Could you stop polluting this thread with false information? I'm tired of debunking you.

[Varioss]

1 hour ago, SUBS17 said:

The fuse requires a FIRING SOLUTION in order to arm and if it does not all that the OVERIDE would do is fire the rocket motor. The fuse requires a missile lock in order to know the target distance and explode. There are SAFETY CIRCUITS inside the missile to prevent the warhead exploding by accident and that is what stops you the person with an R60 getting the rocket to explode if it hits a tank. There are versions of the missile that have an Air to Ground fuse like you see on some movies. It is like an Aim 9 for Air to Ground those use Laser guidance in order to hit targets and have a different shaped charge. So it is not a heat seeker but looks the same as an Aim 9 and has a different warhead. But you will not see those here.

It's quite incredible, I've never seen a person that thinks they know so much when in reality then know nothing. You have 4.6k posts + your account is 18 years so you'd assume you read quite a bit about different technologies but no... You just spew lies. I wish the mods would filter out messages like that to avoid confusing new members not that knowledgeable in the topic

[SUBS17]

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

No, there are not. The safety circuits are disengaged when the missile is launched. They definitely do not require a target lock, because as I said, physics themselves mean it is not really possible to implement such a circuit. 

Also, the R-60 will lock on a tank or a truck just fine, so even if there was such a safety, it doesn't prevent it from hitting ground targets. You have no idea what you're talking about.

You must have been confused by the fact AIM-9 uses laser ranging in its proximity fuze. No variant of the AIM-9 has ever used laser guidance, unless you consider a Zuni with APKWS a Sidewinder variant. There was an experimental air to ground version of the AIM-9 (called Focus), but it was IR-guided, just like any other Sidewinder, and it did not enter service.

Could you stop polluting this thread with false information? I'm tired of debunking you.

 

Yes there are Safety Circuits in the missile, it is a problem which I was not aware of until this was brought up about the fuses and the missile over ride which is not yet modelled correctly in DCS it would be good if they added it. Safety fuses are a technical subject which I have some knowledge of. You're not debunking anyone since you do not have a clue about the missile. I mentioned in this thread that the missile requires a firing solution in order to go after a target. The rocket motor would ignite so long as the over ride is used but it is an unguided rocket and is not accurate. You need to be extremely accurate to hit targets from the air as you would find in DCS with any aircraft. The missile behaviour is as I described which makes hitting vehicles nearly impossible in real life and it is a cannon ball since the warhead requires a firing solution in order to arm. The Aim 9 described is an early model not available here, it is not an Aim 9 but an Air to Ground Missile that is the same shape. There are many missiles that are developed that are not manufactured because people chose a different type for the role.   

[SUBS17]

5 hours ago, Varioss said:

It's quite incredible, I've never seen a person that thinks they know so much when in reality then know nothing. You have 4.6k posts + your account is 18 years so you'd assume you read quite a bit about different technologies but no... You just spew lies. I wish the mods would filter out messages like that to avoid confusing new members not that knowledgeable in the topic

You are arguing over an R60 missile being used against tanks, my replies are detailed yours are not. For tanks it requires a particular type of shaped charge, an R60's is not for that purpose. It is just a cannon ball without a firing solution. It looks for aircraft not vehicles with the seeker. 

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

Safety fuses are a technical subject which I have some knowledge of. 

For fireworks, maybe, but not for air to air ordnance. At best, you're translating your knowledge of something like the Maverick to a missile which very much doesn't work like a Maverick, despite both using IR guidance. There's no such thing as "launch override" in most aircraft when firing a heatseeker, despite what FC3 might make you think. It goes hot off the rail and if it sees a heat source, it goes after it. Missiles of this generation cannot determine anything about the heat signature except how hot it is. If it can see a helicopter (and it can), it can also see a hot engine on the ground. Some tanks even use a gas turbine and have a hot exhaust that is literally the same as a helicopter exhaust.

Even if you do know something about fuzes, you're perfectly clueless about missile guidance systems, their physics, limitations and evolution. I suggest you read up on those subjects, because what you describe is simply impossible for the missile under discussion. The way you describe would be safer, but it can't be done.

7 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

You are arguing over an R60 missile being used against tanks, my replies are detailed yours are not.

Doesn't matter if they're "detailed", they are wrong. Also, nobody is arguing for R-60 being used against tanks. It's got 4kg of explosive in there, shaped charge or not, it simply won't do anything to a tank. Not because it won't explode, because the explosion will be too small. Ground targets, in this context, means trucks, which can very definitely be blown apart by such a small warhead, without a shaped charge. Russian missiles are flexible, see several instances of such "off-label" usage in the ongoing war.

[okopanja]

Funny nobody mentions the different temperature and wavelenghts for air and ground targets...

[Varioss]

16 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

You are arguing over an R60 missile being used against tanks, my replies are detailed yours are not. For tanks it requires a particular type of shaped charge, an R60's is not for that purpose. It is just a cannon ball without a firing solution. It looks for aircraft not vehicles with the seeker. 

I have never said anything about tanks... I said ground targets. And second I asked for a source about a known usage of the missile. So if you won't post any you can just stop posting anything. You won't help anybody with your bs explanations.

[SUBS17]

9 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

For fireworks, maybe, but not for air to air ordnance. At best, you're translating your knowledge of something like the Maverick to a missile which very much doesn't work like a Maverick, despite both using IR guidance. There's no such thing as "launch override" in most aircraft when firing a heatseeker, despite what FC3 might make you think. It goes hot off the rail and if it sees a heat source, it goes after it. Missiles of this generation cannot determine anything about the heat signature except how hot it is. If it can see a helicopter (and it can), it can also see a hot engine on the ground. Some tanks even use a gas turbine and have a hot exhaust that is literally the same as a helicopter exhaust.

Even if you do know something about fuzes, you're perfectly clueless about missile guidance systems, their physics, limitations and evolution. I suggest you read up on those subjects, because what you describe is simply impossible for the missile under discussion. The way you describe would be safer, but it can't be done.

Doesn't matter if they're "detailed", they are wrong. Also, nobody is arguing for R-60 being used against tanks. It's got 4kg of explosive in there, shaped charge or not, it simply won't do anything to a tank. Not because it won't explode, because the explosion will be too small. Ground targets, in this context, means trucks, which can very definitely be blown apart by such a small warhead, without a shaped charge. Russian missiles are flexible, see several instances of such "off-label" usage in the ongoing war.

What you are suggesting has no place in DCS it is quite simply unrealistic. The explosive in missiles has an explosive charge, a booster and a detonator with the R60 it has more than 1. All aircraft modelled in DCS that carry Air to Air weapons have a missile over ride try reading the manual. If you're using that button you are doing something wrong.

Edited August 8, 2022 by SUBS17

[SUBS17]

20 minutes ago, Varioss said:

I have never said anything about tanks... I said ground targets. And second I asked for a source about a known usage of the missile. So if you won't post any you can just stop posting anything. You won't help anybody with your bs explanations.

You will not find anything on the internet about a lot of the technical side of the missile. It would unrealistic to model a missile the way being described with it locking onto and killing vehicles or being used without a FIRING SOLUTION. 

[Varioss]

3 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

What you are suggesting has no place in DCS it is quite simply unrealistic. The explosive in missiles has an explosive charge, a booster and a detonator with the R60 it has more than 1. All aircraft modelled in DCS that carry Air to Air weapons have a missile over ride try reading the manual. If you're using that button you are doing something wrong.

 

3 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

You will not find anything on the internet about a lot of the technical side of the missile. It would unrealistic to model a missile the way being described with it locking onto and killing vehicles or being used without a FIRING SOLUTION. 

Do you actually have problems with reading?? It's "Military and Aviation" Sub-Forum. I don't care about how it's simulated in DCS neither do I care about the technical side of the missile. I asked about "REAL LIFE USAGE OF IT" and sources for it. Also Wags literally said they are gonna add that functionality later in the Early Access of the Hind. I have never met more insane person on an internet forum. Re-read the entire thread and if you still think you are right then just don't answer anymore. (Or do answer as I have a great laugh reading the bs you write :D)