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Information about R-60 Missiles used as air to ground missile.


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11 hours ago, okopanja said:

Funny nobody mentions the different temperature and wavelenghts for air and ground targets...

That's because they are not that different. For an all-aspect missile to work, it needs to see the fuselage and cockpit, not just the incredibly hot exhaust. For that reason, it's going to operate in the range of temperatures that includes normal temperatures that can be reached by objects on the ground. Rear aspect ones, meanwhile, are typically so primitive that they will see a broad spectrum of infrared radiation. You'll get a poor tone, but one that's good enough. At night, or in cool climates, it's very possible to get an air to ground lock with an air to air heater. Now, AIM-9X probably has a way to ensure it only locks on aircraft, but it's an artificial limitation (although a reasonable one, seeing as they cost more than most things that you can blow up on the ground with that warhead).

2 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

What you are suggesting has no place in DCS it is quite simply unrealistic. The explosive in missiles has an explosive charge, a booster and a detonator with the R60 it has more than 1. All aircraft modelled in DCS that carry Air to Air weapons have a missile over ride try reading the manual. If you're using that button you are doing something wrong.

OK, then show me on which page this mystical override is described in, say, Mirage 2000 (since "all aircraft" obviously includes that one). Or any other non-FC3 aircraft you own. I'll wait.

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This is the greatest forum ive read all week, bless your souls everyone. btw I might add that even sidewinders have been successfully used to target ground units, including the AIM-9X. a missile does not care what a heat source is, just the presence of one is usually enough (more modern ones also use images for tracking)
File:AIM-9L hits tank at China Lake 1971.jpg - Wikimedia Commons


Edited by Get_Lo
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A real Fighter Pilot would use the correct ordnance to use against a ground target. A real R60 would not hit a ground target if missile over ride were used. A better weapon is a gun and that is why they are there.

9 hours ago, Varioss said:

Do you actually have problems with reading?? It's "Military and Aviation" Sub-Forum. I don't care about how it's simulated in DCS neither do I care about the technical side of the missile. I asked about "REAL LIFE USAGE OF IT" and sources for it. Also Wags literally said they are gonna add that functionality later in the Early Access of the Hind. I have never met more insane person on an internet forum. Re-read the entire thread and if you still think you are right then just don't answer anymore. (Or do answer as I have a great laugh reading the bs you write :D)

 

[sIGPIC]2011subsRADM.jpg

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7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

That's because they are not that different. For an all-aspect missile to work, it needs to see the fuselage and cockpit, not just the incredibly hot exhaust. For that reason, it's going to operate in the range of temperatures that includes normal temperatures that can be reached by objects on the ground. Rear aspect ones, meanwhile, are typically so primitive that they will see a broad spectrum of infrared radiation. You'll get a poor tone, but one that's good enough. At night, or in cool climates, it's very possible to get an air to ground lock with an air to air heater. Now, AIM-9X probably has a way to ensure it only locks on aircraft, but it's an artificial limitation (although a reasonable one, seeing as they cost more than most things that you can blow up on the ground with that warhead).

OK, then show me on which page this mystical override is described in, say, Mirage 2000 (since "all aircraft" obviously includes that one). Or any other non-FC3 aircraft you own. I'll wait.

F-16 has a missile over ride. If you use a heat seeker without a missile lock then you are wasting your time. It is assumed by your post that the Seeker is like a thermal imager but the rear aspect missiles are not primitive it is a design feature. The seeker is not like a thermal imager although people get that impression because it is called a Heat Seeker. It is modelled as such in simulators such as DCS and Arma but their way of seeing the target is more than heat and the missile can identify the target type including an R60. 

[sIGPIC]2011subsRADM.jpg

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1 hour ago, Get_Lo said:

This is the greatest forum ive read all week, bless your souls everyone. btw I might add that even sidewinders have been successfully used to target ground units, including the AIM-9X. a missile does not care what a heat source is, just the presence of one is usually enough (more modern ones also use images for tracking)
File:AIM-9L hits tank at China Lake 1971.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

 

That looks as though it is going to miss. 

[sIGPIC]2011subsRADM.jpg

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4 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

F-16 has a missile over ride.

Page in the manual and/or cockpit location, please. Also, I asked about Mirage 2000. 

This is proof that you are full of crap. The sooner you understand that you don't know anything, the sooner you can start learning the facts.

4 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

If you use a heat seeker without a missile lock then you are wasting your time.

Not without a lock. As multiple people have said, heatseekers don't care what the heat comes from, just that it's there.

4 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

...and Arma

Confirmed, you know NOTHING. ArmA does not model realistic missile mechanization. Aviation is the most gamey aspect of that sim. In both ArmA in DCS, heaters don't lock on ground targets because the devs didn't bother modeling that behavior.

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4 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

A real Fighter Pilot would use the correct ordnance to use against a ground target. A real R60 would not hit a ground target if missile over ride were used. A better weapon is a gun and that is why they are there.

 

My man single-handedly destroyed the Soviet Air Force by saying they are not real pilots since they used the r-60.

 

4 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

That looks as though it is going to miss. 

Even if it’s gonna miss it would overpressure non-armoured target like that since it seems it would hit closely. You literally have a picture of sidewinder doing it but you still put finger into your ears and go “LaLaLa I am not listening to you, missiles can’t do it”.

5 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

 

This is the greatest forum ive read all week

 

Every post I made on this forum turns into a <profanity>storm… I think I will post some more 

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On 8/4/2022 at 8:04 PM, Varioss said:

Hello,
I am looking for any kind of manuals, books, videos or any other source (preferably official soviet ones) that talks about usage of R-60/R-60M missiles on Mi-24 (or other soviet airplanes/helicopters) against ground targets. Sources in russians are okay.

Thanks for all responses.

 

I was once also looking for this information, unfortunately didn't find much. I asked a Russian-speaking friend for help, but he was not of much use (not military-minded, you know).

Anyway, you can check out this article:

https://topwar.ru/21468-vertushki-afganistan-mi-24.html?fbclid=IwAR3aG7eYK4BsglolFCZxdSt29bhswvYKUvWWkEQGf_bLO2EazncOqPRT1GY

A fragment you may find interesting:

Для воздушных целей предназначались Р-60 на левом пилоне, правая АПУ была наклонена вниз, чтобы ее тепловая ГСН могла захватить наземную «горячую» цель — костер или двигатель автомашины. По результатам испытаний Р-60 на вертолетах, однако, было известно, что ракеты по подобным воздушным целям с малой тепловой контрастностью не очень эффективны и способны захватить чужой вертолет максимум с 500-600 м, а поршневого «нарушителя» и того меньше.

 


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11 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

This is the greatest forum ive read all week, bless your souls everyone. btw I might add that even sidewinders have been successfully used to target ground units, including the AIM-9X. a missile does not care what a heat source is, just the presence of one is usually enough (more modern ones also use images for tracking)
File:AIM-9L hits tank at China Lake 1971.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

 

The Aim 9X has a lot of cool features it should only go after an aircraft. You see in Movies people using Heat seekers against hot targets of many types the Aim 9X uses a combination in order to identify and go after the target that it has locked on to. This type of missile should never miss, it is not about Heat Source but target shape. The AEROSPACE-FIGHTER described as Tic Tac would not be a type of target that an Aim 9X would go after. And what you see in the video is different to its actual shape which is a wedge shape.

[sIGPIC]2011subsRADM.jpg

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14 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

but their way of seeing the target is more than heat and the missile can identify the target type including an R60. 

Afaik the R-60 uses a OGS-60TI "Komar" thermal homing head which is equipped with an uncooled photocell. Source: Book = Markowski Soviet air-to-air rockets (5-94038-084-0)

Quickly searched for photocell in missile systems: "A photocell is a device that is used to detect and measure light. The photocell device may be used in look-angle indicator systems for missiles. The system is for locating a space oriented source for incident light waves having continuously changing angles of incidence and changing values of intensity. A lateral photocell of the semiconductor type is used in a circuit having two amplifiers, two voltagecontrolled subcarrier oscillators, a mixer, and a transmitter."


So nothing but heat seeking

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10 hours ago, Nick_17 said:

 

Afaik the R-60 uses a OGS-60TI "Komar" thermal homing head which is equipped with an uncooled photocell. Source: Book = Markowski Soviet air-to-air rockets (5-94038-084-0)

Quickly searched for photocell in missile systems: "A photocell is a device that is used to detect and measure light. The photocell device may be used in look-angle indicator systems for missiles. The system is for locating a space oriented source for incident light waves having continuously changing angles of incidence and changing values of intensity. A lateral photocell of the semiconductor type is used in a circuit having two amplifiers, two voltagecontrolled subcarrier oscillators, a mixer, and a transmitter."


So nothing but heat seeking

 

There is some very high tech circuitry in the R60 it is more complex than people think. The newest missiles for Air to Air have a high off boresight capability. There are plenty of good missiles but even an R60 is capable of hitting a modern jet. Although it is an older missile it can still do the job except for hitting ground vehicles. 😄 With the latest Fighter Pilots Helmets such as the SCORPION a pilot can detect an enemy aircraft very quickly literally the second they take off! What people do not know is that the R60 and the R Series of missiles are all designed to help defend Mother Russia.

[sIGPIC]2011subsRADM.jpg

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@SUBS17please if you are going to make outlandish claims in the reality section at least have some evidence to back it up, people will always call it out otherwise.

 

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I think he might be attempting a "victory by endurance". Keep repeating his humbug until everyone is tired of debunking him. 🙂 So far, he managed to confuse the R-60 with Maverick, multiple Sidewinder versions and the R-73. All of which are capable of hitting targets outside their primary use, but that doesn't seem to register. 

Maybe he believes that a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth, so if he keeps repeating this enough times, Russian anti-ship missiles will stop being able to target Ukrainian ground targets (because an R-60 is the same as a ship-launched ASM, right?). 🙂 

22 hours ago, Nick_17 said:

Afaik the R-60 uses a OGS-60TI "Komar" thermal homing head which is equipped with an uncooled photocell.

Yeah, and that's what makes it suck for anything but low aspect shots - uncooled photocell is bad at seeing the fuselage, but still good enough to see the engine. Still doesn't prevent you from trying to lock something on the ground, but it requires proper environmental conditions (say, Russian winter or a cool Afghan night) for that to happen.

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15 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

 

With the latest Fighter Pilots Helmets such as the SCORPION a pilot can detect an enemy aircraft very quickly literally the second they take off! What people do not know is that the R60 and the R Series of missiles are all designed to help defend Mother Russia.

Wha-what are you talking about. None of this is telling me how the R-60 is able visually identify targets. I dont even want to get started on the Scorpion thing. again, ANY source at all that the R-60 can visually Identify targets? Why would they get rid of this technology for the R-73? 

On 8/9/2022 at 11:07 AM, SUBS17 said:

The Aim 9X has a lot of cool features it should only go after an aircraft. You see in Movies people using Heat seekers against hot targets of many types the Aim 9X uses a combination in order to identify and go after the target that it has locked on to. This type of missile should never miss, it is not about Heat Source but target shape. The AEROSPACE-FIGHTER described as Tic Tac would not be a type of target that an Aim 9X would go after. And what you see in the video is different to its actual shape which is a wedge shape.

What does this even mean, are planes like the B-2 immune to IR (INFARED BTW) guided missiles? you cant be serious.

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On 8/7/2022 at 9:10 AM, Varioss said:

zogIabo.png

I went in game and found out 2 things:

  1. The tooltip. It's seems to indeed be a switch to specify the ground targets and not that the aircraft is in the air
  2. After setting it to GND position I could still lock on target and fire so it's 100% not some kind of safety/caging switch.

I feel like there is no difference in the fuzing in 2 modes. Maybe it's something that's not yet implemented.

So yeah the A/G functionality of this is not actually implemented in DCS AFAIK.

IRL its basically a fuse setting to turn off the prox fuse and just use the impact fuse since the missile is hitting something, or the ground next to something.

As the story goes the soviets tried to use R60 or R60M. In Afghanistan against the Mujahedeen. The use case for something like this is pretty limited but plausible. Basically at night you aren't gonna have a lot of ground signal in that part of the spectrum that these seekers are sensitive to since alot of that is basically reflected in that part of the spectrum. The big thing being that engines or more likely the hot parts of "engine exhaust" will be detectable due to sufficient "contrast" since the ground is now "cold" (so you gotta wait till like right before sunrise for ideal results as this is when the ground will be coolest. So as the story goes the soviets used the seekers to find "trucks" running "dark" and then shot the missiles at em. Or as someone else mentioned they probably dropped flares so they could actually see something first, or maybe both. Similar stories also exist for US missiles in VN as well as other conflicts. Angola comes to mind as well. 

Also just take anything subs says with Mt. Everest grain of salt... The R60/60M seekers while quite advanced and beating the west to the punch for limited all aspect capability, succeeding where china lake failed. The R60/60M were advanced for the day but in no way do they "image" anything they just detect a "hot" signal and they use a conventional photocell/seeker layout pretty similar to say mid gen sidewinder missiles.   

 


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On 8/8/2022 at 1:45 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

DCS simulation of proximity fuzes is sketchy (in fact, I'm not sure they are simulated at all),

They are and always have been. I don't know where this myth came from, but it's pretty evident if you spend much time observing them. The situations where missiles appear to fly through proximity fuzing range or even directly through an aircraft are due to differences between server and client interpolation in MP.

I have died to missiles my teammates decided to lob over my shoulder at the guy I was engaging and I've watched my own missiles just barely reach proximity fuzing range before running out of energy, so they detonated in an exhaust plume or just barely within reach of a wingtip. They're modelled.

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Targeting of ground units with IR signatures with IR missiles is planned for DCS but I can not give any ETA.

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11 hours ago, rossmum said:

They are and always have been. I don't know where this myth came from, but it's pretty evident if you spend much time observing them. The situations where missiles appear to fly through proximity fuzing range or even directly through an aircraft are due to differences between server and client interpolation in MP.

I have died to missiles my teammates decided to lob over my shoulder at the guy I was engaging and I've watched my own missiles just barely reach proximity fuzing range before running out of energy, so they detonated in an exhaust plume or just barely within reach of a wingtip. They're modelled.

Its pretty easy/clear to see the new 530 has prox fuse, and big explosion. Maybe just harder to see the smaller missiles do it. I'd imagine the phoenix should be huge as well but maybe there are issues with it going too fast. 

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On 8/9/2022 at 6:15 AM, Get_Lo said:

This is the greatest forum ive read all week, bless your souls everyone. btw I might add that even sidewinders have been successfully used to target ground units, including the AIM-9X. a missile does not care what a heat source is, just the presence of one is usually enough (more modern ones also use images for tracking)

FWIW, the 9X has an infrared imaging sensor, and as far as I know, it's the same as in the IRIS-T. The IRIS-T can lock onto some pretty funny stuff on the ground, regardless of having an imaging sensor. How would I know? Well, one of my friends who worked at an airbase for several years told me that they tried it with some quite hilarious items, and they were amazed by what they could lock on to with the IRIS-T.

The missile doesn't care whether the target is in the air or on the ground, moving or not, and what kind of target it is, as long as the seeker can see the target, it will guide there and hit. And since that is even true for the most modern imaging missiles, it would be just as true for much older and less sophisticated missiles that just lock onto anything that's hot and big enough.

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Am 9.8.2022 um 11:30 schrieb Dragon1-1:

Confirmed, you know NOTHING. ArmA does not model realistic missile mechanization. Aviation is the most gamey aspect of that sim. In both ArmA in DCS, heaters don't lock on ground targets because the devs didn't bother modeling that behavior.

Couldn't the Gazelle in DCS even do that with its Mistral?

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This is a behavior coded by Polychop specifically for the Mistral. As @BIGNEWY said, proper implementation in DCS core is now in planned, but not yet implemented. It is possible for 3rd parties to code their AA missiles to guide on both air and ground targets, but most of them didn't do it. Also, I don't know if Polychop implementation interacts with the new FLIR or not (to determine the heat signature), but ED's implementation almost certainly will. This has a chance to be quite realistic.

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