Alternative Cockpit?

[XCNuse]

10 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Dynamic Cockpit wasnt a Early Access Feature was it?

Can't say anything was ever specified as being "EA" or not; just going off of what was sold to me at time of purchase.

Either way, Heatblur's Viggen is 5 years old and they still call it Early Access, so I hate putting that name on things that are half a decade old.... Several years... shouldn't be considered "Early Access"

[zildac]

Not shiny new, but works well in VR https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313661/

[Hobo 1-1]

On 8/6/2022 at 3:58 PM, draconus said:

You may disagree but we've been told by SMEs and RL pilot that's how it looked even few months in service on the deck, salt water and stuff. I thought you meant something important like a gauge or instrument but labels... you're not supposed to read it, esp. during a flight.

An option for a clean cockpit, while frequently requested, is not likely to happen due to the need for huge amount of work, as HB said.

I’m basing my ‘complaint’ on my own experience. Admittedly Army aviation and not Navy aviation. That standard was once an indicator or labeling became unreadable it was unserviceable. Period. I wasn’t on a carrier, but we’re based on an island chain and salt water/corrosion was a constant problem. None of my control heads ever, ever looked like that and we beat the hell out of our aircraft. Wear and tear is one thing, obviously unserviceable equipment is another. I just don’t buy the lamps we’re nothing but a blossom of light with completely unreadable fronts, regardless of how old the AC was or how well trained our pilots are. 
 

I still believe the horrid condition of the tomcat modeled in game is reflective of a end of cruise, lacking of spare parts (the Tomcat’s supply chain was intentionally throttled by Dick Cheney) end of life example. Nothing wrong with that, it’s just that I want something a tad more romantic with a nod towards ‘it’s a game’ when it comes to being able to read stuff in the cockpit. 

[RustBelt]

The light bloom is sadly a DCS thing they added a few months after the Tomcat. They need to find someone to rebuild the lighting system who doesn’t have an astigmatism, or glaucoma. 

[near_blind]

Y'all really can't read that?

[Alicatt]

10 hours ago, near_blind said:

Y'all really can't read that?

Some yes other parts no.

Bad eyesight was why I was rejected as a pilot in the RAF. It really does put me off flying the F-14, I really do feel I was sold a pig in a poke.

[near_blind]

6 hours ago, Alicatt said:

Bad eyesight was why I was rejected as a pilot in the RAF. It really does put me off flying the F-14, I really do feel I was sold a pig in a poke.

I didn't exactly come to my user name at random. I _do_ have an astigmatism and glasses so thick you can cook ants with them on a sunny day, and yet I find the cockpit perfectly readable. I honestly can't see a difference between the supplied images of a supposedly "clean" cockpit and what I've posted when it comes to the button or switch labels. I'd agree the HB advisory lights are a little more diffuse, but at the same time I've got no trouble reading them. 

Of course everyone is different, my eyesight is not your eyesight, I merely find it funny that the person above accused the artist of having sight problems, yet here we are. I might also suggest that at some point, that isn't a Tomcat issue, that's a vision correction issue. Failing that,    Xtreme    mods exist for this sort of thing.

[Hobo 1-1]

21 hours ago, near_blind said:

Y'all really can't read that?

* the entire VTR box

* the entire HUD camera control head

* the emergency hydraulics switch and control head

* 75% of  Master Test panel is unrecognizable 

* both floods and the taxi light switch 

*the ICLS power switch 

* the hook bypass switch

* The entire threat warning indicator

* the entire left hand, windshield warning indicators 

* the missile mode switch, master caution reset switch, SEAM, collision and hot trigger lights 

* both engine stall annunciators 

* both banks of VDI caution lights 

* Hydraulic isolation switch labeling 

* most throttle markings (not really important, but you asked)

* backup ignition switch

* throttle mode switch, backup ignition switch, right and left engine mode switches, 

* the entire SAS panel

* VEC/PCD switch

 

[near_blind]

2 hours ago, Hobo 1-1 said:

* the entire VTR box

* the entire HUD camera control head

* the emergency hydraulics switch and control head

* 75% of  Master Test panel is unrecognizable 

* both floods and the taxi light switch 

*the ICLS power switch 

* the hook bypass switch

* The entire threat warning indicator

* the entire left hand, windshield warning indicators 

* the missile mode switch, master caution reset switch, SEAM, collision and hot trigger lights 

* both engine stall annunciators 

* both banks of VDI caution lights 

* Hydraulic isolation switch labeling 

* most throttle markings (not really important, but you asked)

* backup ignition switch

* throttle mode switch, backup ignition switch, right and left engine mode switches, 

* the entire SAS panel

* VEC/PCD switch

 

That is a list of things in the cockpit, yes. I can see a number of them in that screenshot, and to me they are _clearly readable_. Are they not for you?

[Callsign JoNay]

Isn't there already a mod for a clean cockpit? Or does it not pass IC or something?

What is the problem with using that? 

[draconus]

The only problem with current cockpit is altimeter reading window (thousands of feet). The numbers are small and grey - should be bigger and white - the same as big numbers around the instrument.

[WinOrLose]

On 8/13/2022 at 2:05 AM, near_blind said:

Y'all really can't read that?

If that's in VR then I need a new headset.

[Hobo 1-1]

23 hours ago, near_blind said:

That is a list of things in the cockpit, yes. I can see a number of them in that screenshot, and to me they are _clearly readable_. Are they not for you?

Point out which on my list is viewable and _clearly readable_ in that screen shot. You’re attempting a burden of proof reversal by asking me to prove a negative. Instead of playing a cat and mouse game of semantics, circular logic and passive-aggressive comments have the courage of your beta testing title and address what I said.
 

What did I post that isn’t accurate, can be seen from that screen shot and is _clearly readable_? 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Hobo 1-1

[Hobo 1-1]

On 8/11/2022 at 5:28 PM, zildac said:

Not shiny new, but works well in VR https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313661/



 

Thanks man! That is an awesome mod, but doesn’t pass IC. It’s a shame, because it’s an exhaustive mod. Load screen, music and sweet, sweet legibility. 

[near_blind]

7 hours ago, Hobo 1-1 said:

Point out which on my list is viewable and _clearly readable_ in that screen shot. You’re attempting a burden of proof reversal by asking me to prove a negative. Instead of playing a cat and mouse game of semantics, circular logic and passive-aggressive comments have the courage of your beta testing title and address what I said.
 

What did I post that isn’t accurate, can be seen from that screen shot and is _clearly readable_? 

-  the missile mode switch, master caution reset switch, SEAM, collision and hot trigger lights 

- both engine stall annunciators 

- both banks of VDI caution lights 

- The entire threat warning indicator

- the entire left hand, windshield warning indicators 

- the entire VTR box

- the entire HUD camera control head

- the emergency hydraulics switch and control head

- Master Test Panel

- both floods and the taxi light switch 

- both banks of VDI caution lights 

- Hydraulic isolation switch labeling 

- the throttle markings

- backup ignition switch

- throttle mode switch, backup ignition switch, right and left engine mode switches, 

- the entire SAS panel

- VEC/PCD switch

I can make out all of those switches, even the non-interactable ones. Can you not?

Edited August 15, 2022 by near_blind
removing the weird manual text colors that keep popping up in the quotes.

[Pasquale1986]

For me as a user of the Oculus Rift (not S) I identified the primary Problem as the Textsize and not the weathering. There is a mod in the userfiles to mitigate this problem, which i highly recommend for users with older Headsets - as mine - that do not have the resolution to render the fontsize in a readable manner.

[Hobo 1-1]

12 hours ago, near_blind said:

-  the missile mode switch, master caution reset switch, SEAM, collision and hot trigger lights 

- both engine stall annunciators 

- both banks of VDI caution lights 

- The entire threat warning indicator

- the entire left hand, windshield warning indicators 

- the entire VTR box

- the entire HUD camera control head

- the emergency hydraulics switch and control head

- Master Test Panel

- both floods and the taxi light switch 

- both banks of VDI caution lights 

- Hydraulic isolation switch labeling 

- the throttle markings

- backup ignition switch

- throttle mode switch, backup ignition switch, right and left engine mode switches, 

- the entire SAS panel

- VEC/PCD switch

I can make out all of those switches, even the non-interactable ones. Can you not?

 

Let's use some Beta Tester logic.

We are in a thread about alternate cockpits motivated by the state of the current cockpit, specifically around legability of instruments and labels. I've specified exactly what's hard to read in the front cockpit. You've asked me three times if I can't see what you claim is _clearly readable_. What do you think my answer is? We know *you* don't have this problem (as you've mentioned three times), but what do you think my answer is based on this topic, this thread, these comments and my comments to you?

Thank you for contributing (three times!) that *you* don't have this problem, but I'll clue you in to something outside of your sim pit: some of us do. Actually a lot of us do. It's also worth mentioning, that yes, I *can* see the switches you mention, but that was never my complaint. I understand in the fleet Tomcat cockpits were dirty. I couldn't care less if the scanned cockpit is too pretty based on real life (but I dont buy that, at all) - this is a game and I dont derive my self worth from torturing myself, because reality. I would like a more romantic cockpit with easily legible markings, labeling, etc. You repetitivly asserting you don't have an issue is just peachy, but doesn't move the ball forward and doesn't erase the shared reality of many Tomcat enjoyers that much of the cockpit labeling is worn beyond servicability.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Hobo 1-1

[near_blind]

2 hours ago, Hobo 1-1 said:

Thank you for contributing (three times!) that *you* don't have this problem, but I'll clue you in to something outside of your sim pit: some of us do. Actually a lot of us do. It's also worth mentioning, that yes, I *can* see the switches you mention, but that was never my complaint. I understand in the fleet Tomcat cockpits were dirty. I couldn't care less if the scanned cockpit is too pretty based on real life (but I dont buy that, at all) - this is a game and I dont derive my self worth from torturing myself, because reality. I would like a more romantic cockpit with easily legible markings, labeling, etc. You repetitivly asserting you don't have an issue is just peachy, but doesn't move the ball forward and doesn't erase the shared reality of many Tomcat enjoyers that much of the cockpit labeling is worn beyond servicability.

Here's my confusion though. You're alternating between you can't see the switches, and you don't like how they look. Some people in the thread are indicating they can't see the switches with their hardware, and then there's a conflation that this is because of how grimey/dirty/etc the cockpit is. Where I'm coming from is a hypothetical clean up isn't going to help much if you can't read the switches in the first place. 

Here's "our" actual Tomcat

Note that for most of the controls that a pilot is likely to meaningfully interact with in the course of flying or fighting the jet: the ACM panel, the PCDP, the instrument panel, the labelling is about as clear as in our jet, which is about as clear as in the pictures that allegedly show a "clean" cockpit. I don't see how if people already can't read the text that is about as clear as it got, making the dirtier text cleaner is going to help much. This strikes me as an issue with a user's hardware setup, but that's just me. 

If it's an issue of taste, I don't understand how the cockpit can be objectively wrong if the only evidence against it is subjective taste. I haven't seen anything that clearly proves that F-14 is unreasonably dirt except the opinions of people who have not sat in one, and a couple of pictures showing areas of the cockpit that look pretty similar to what we have. On the contrary there's a post from someone who's sat in F-14s as they were that says it looks about right. I've talked to multiple friends who have flown naval aircraft who all agree it looks about right for a working cockpit.

If you want your cockpit to be clean because you have a romanticized view of something akin to the SF2 mattel cockpit, that's fine, but that's not a reason to change the aircraft. That's what mods are for. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by near_blind

[lunaticfringe]

10 hours ago, Hobo 1-1 said:

Let's use some Beta Tester logic.

Do the conversation a favor and stop with the actual passive-aggressive act regarding the testers identifier.  We don't add our titles; they're afforded based on the substantial amount of our time and energy we put in to make the sim better, whether or not you agree with the outcome, or our personal opinions on a subjective topic (of which this is).  

10 hours ago, Hobo 1-1 said:

I couldn't care less if the scanned cockpit is too pretty based on real life (but I dont buy that, at all)

Pull up a copy of Danny Coram's "Uncovering the F-14" if you have it, or search for it online.  Or get your hands on one of the multitude of Tomcat fan magazines the Japanese put out in the mid to late 90s and forward ten years into the end of service period- you'll find line jets at Oceana, Fallon, and elsewhere with clearly worse condition cockpits based on the scratches and wear to the surfaces enclosed in those pages.  

Unfortunately, your experience isn't comparable, and the evidence is there to disprove it. You don't have to like that, it simply is what it is.  Doesn't mean it isn't valid on the types you were around, and if and when those come into DCS- I'd hope they're presented in the condition you recall.  As for the Tomcat, I expect it to be in the condition the SMEs HB worked with recall- and that's exactly where it is. 

10 hours ago, Hobo 1-1 said:

I would like a more romantic cockpit with easily legible markings, labeling, etc. You repetitivly asserting you don't have an issue is just peachy, but doesn't move the ball forward and doesn't erase the shared reality of many Tomcat enjoyers that much of the cockpit labeling is worn beyond servicability.

The bottom line is that the jet as exampled isn't beyond servicability indicated by the evidence and conversations that have been had, and that HBs version of the F-14 is a line jet during a mid-life cycle deployment period, being used like the weapon it was; that is to say, what they romanticize about the jet is different than you. This has been a topic of conversation since well before release, and their choices regarding its condition were made clear here and elsewhere repeatedly before anyone ever had a chance to spend a dime on it.

They explained what they were doing and why. They showed it off extensively.  The photos validate what they were looking for, their crews and maintainers confirm it.  The aircraft is presented in the form they want it shown.  You don't have to appreciate it, but by the same token- you, or anyone else, repeatedly making the same argument over and over to that point isn't moving the ball forward, either- play is stopped, that particular game is over, and they've made that clear. 

The solution now is to request the servers you like to fly on to option in the replacement cockpit you want to use under their IC settings.  

Edited August 16, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[Machalot]

Just curious -- I haven't seen the words "zoom" and "spyglass" in this thread.  Are you aware of the VR Zoom and VR Spyglass Zoom keybinds under the UI Layer / VR section?  I have a first gen Oculus Rift (like @Pasquale1986) and have not adjusted the Text Size nor used any cockpit mods. There are some things that are hard to see in standard view, but a quick tap of VR Zoom, or in rare cases Spyglass, makes everything visible.

[IronMike]

We appreciate the wish for a cleaner cockpit very much, unfortunately it is not within the realm of feasible currently though, as a complete rework of the cockpit would simply take far too long. And while we do believe the cockpit is a faithful representation of its in service character, and it was a deliberate decision to tell many small stories through its wear and tear. It is also an artistic decision we very much stand by. That however does not mean that we would not want to give you more options, if we could.

But this is precisely what forge is for. And I should probably clarify a bit on that: weathering details does not mean the entire cockpit. More like panels, places, spots. But this is where we can make certain things more legible, a bit different, etc. to diversify the experience. It likely will not constitute in the end what most of you would regard as a "clean cockpit", and in the end is also not meant to deliver that, but meant to deliver the experience of not flying always the same aircraft. But we do hear your wishes, and I would be surprised if not some of them at least will be considered when time comes. It will, of course, have to fit within the current representation.

Thank you for your kind understanding.

[Turd Ferguson]

I use just the texture portion of this mod. Makes everything easily readable

 

F-14 VR Ultimate Xperience (F14VUX)
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313661/

[lunaticfringe]

Pertinent to the matter. 

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/306559-f14-lights-on-the-side-consoles-and-instrument-panel-just-too-dim/?do=findComment&comment=5030926

[LASooner]

While I understand the desire for HB to not want to spend effort in redoing the graphics when they could just be working on finishing the plane as it is, it would be nice if there was some mechanism in place that would allow user customizable textures that don't break integrity checks. Maybe that's an ED issue? Personally I play with the default textures as they are and I'm fine with it, but I feel like the players should be allowed to make their experience better, and changing cockpit textures shouldn't trigger integrity failures. What competitive advantage does changing the cockpit give you in multiplayer?

[Hobo 1-1]

On 8/16/2022 at 7:40 AM, IronMike said:

We appreciate the wish for a cleaner cockpit very much, unfortunately it is not within the realm of feasible currently though, as a complete rework of the cockpit would simply take far too long. And while we do believe the cockpit is a faithful representation of its in service character, and it was a deliberate decision to tell many small stories through its wear and tear. It is also an artistic decision we very much stand by. That however does not mean that we would not want to give you more options, if we could.

But this is precisely what forge is for. And I should probably clarify a bit on that: weathering details does not mean the entire cockpit. More like panels, places, spots. But this is where we can make certain things more legible, a bit different, etc. to diversify the experience. It likely will not constitute in the end what most of you would regard as a "clean cockpit", and in the end is also not meant to deliver that, but meant to deliver the experience of not flying always the same aircraft. But we do hear your wishes, and I would be surprised if not some of them at least will be considered when time comes. It will, of course, have to fit within the current representation.

Thank you for your kind understanding.

What a fantastic reply, thank you.
 

I respect the enormous amount of love put into your Tomcat. I enjoy the module every day and that’s because of your hard work. I respect and appreciate your artistic decisions and think, believe it or not, we agree. Without belaboring the point further, you state very well what I didn’t. 

On 8/16/2022 at 9:40 AM, Turd Ferguson said:

I use just the texture portion of this mod. Makes everything easily readable

 

F-14 VR Ultimate Xperience (F14VUX)
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313661/

Thank you sir! Possible solution