reported Harm AGM88 0 Damage direct hit

[Hobel]

I have now tested a few rounds.

And every now and then the Harm is not able to destroy a targed on direct hits.

 

 

 

AGM88 0% Damage harm.trk

[BIGNEWY]

I think you were just unlucky with a proximity detonation, when I test all seems ok. 

 

[Foka]

Yes, it happens from time to time. The problem is no simulation of blast wave or fragmentation. If missile explode just very close to target it won't do anything.

 

Maybe there's some difference between collision model of some radard and damage model - collision model triggers missile detonation, but it's to far away from damage model.

[Hobel]

Have you seen the track file?  The rocket explodes directly over the target. 

 

This has happened several times in a row, I will send more tracks tonight where this occurs.

2 hours ago, Foka said:

Yes, it happens from time to time. The problem is no simulation of blast wave or fragmentation. If missile explode just very close to target it won't do anything.

 

Maybe there's some difference between collision model of some radard and damage model - collision model triggers missile detonation, but it's to far away from damage model.

If the missile had hit at this distance, the vehicle would have been severely damaged or even destroyed.

[BIGNEWY]

depending on the armour, a proximity blast may not be enough to do damage. In DCS penetration is an important part of the damage, if you do not hit the target you may not be able to penetrate the target, softer targets are more likely to take damage in this case. Until we have better ground unit damage models this is correct as is. 

 

thanks

[Foka]

30 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Have you seen the track file?  The rocket explodes directly over the target. 

In the way track files work, if it didn't damage a target for you, it doesn't mean it won't for someone else. Try to replay your track 2-3 times and you'll see how many differences there will be.

 

Quote

If the missile had hit at this distance, the vehicle would have been severely damaged or even destroyed.

No with the damage model in DCS.

[Hobel]

1 hour ago, Foka said:

No with the damage model in DCS.

I think we misunderstand each other on that point.

I know how the dm works in dcs but what I have observed here it should also be considered destroyed in the dcs world.

 

And why are the targets destroyed even though the missile strikes at a greater distance?

It also happens only when the missile explodes above the target, so why does it explode above the target at all?

 

 

I am curious to see what they will say about the other shots.

Will also record what I see.

If the tracks seem to be insufficient. 

 

[Hobel]

So then I have a few more recordings.

 

Why does the AGM explode in the air and unfortunately cannot kill the SA6, this problem occurs from time to time and is very annoying.

 

https://streamable.com/yklmxd

 

SA6 VS AGM88 79 Damage.trk

Edited November 14, 2021 by Hobel

[Ahmed]

The problem here is essentially that DCS HARM targets a unit, and thus the unit model center. That's why armor incorrectly comes into play.

As seen in plenty of footage, the HARM should guide to the emitter itself, and emitters themselves are exposed enough to be damaged beyond usability by any HARM impact. The vehicle may survive, but the radar wont.

The real fix would be improving DM of ground units and having ARMs target the emitters rather than the unit centroid.

See example with inert AARGM

 

[Hobel]

On 11/15/2021 at 6:19 PM, Ahmed said:

The problem here is essentially that DCS HARM targets a unit, and thus the unit model center. That's why armor incorrectly comes into play.

As seen in plenty of footage, the HARM should guide to the emitter itself, and emitters themselves are exposed enough to be damaged beyond usability by any HARM impact. The vehicle may survive, but the radar wont.

The real fix would be improving DM of ground units and having ARMs target the emitters rather than the unit centroid.

See example with inert AARGM

 

That may be all, but would it be a good start if the rocket didn't just explode in the air above the unit?

[Ahmed]

The AGM-88 has a proximity fuse, so that part is not necessarily wrong.

[Frederf]

Radar dishes are not armored.

[Hobel]

On 12/18/2021 at 6:03 PM, Ahmed said:

The AGM-88 has a proximity fuse, so that part is not necessarily wrong.

ah thanks good to know.

[Hobel]

unfortunately, it is still a bit annoying when there are no repercussions for such hits.Roland Radar 0% Damage.trk

[D4n]

See .trk. F-16C HARM vs Roland SR. (both Ai)

Also seen multiple times on PvE servers, player HARMs not dealing any scratch to Roland SR.

HARMnotDamagingRolandSR.trk

Edited May 28, 2022 by D4n

[Hobel]

Same here and also reported. but "correct as is"

 

The problem is simply the bad damage model in DCS

[D4n]

Quote

bad damage model in DCS

u gotta be kidding me... xD Why the heck does it solely occur with Roland SR and no other unit?

[Hobel]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb D4n:

u gotta be kidding me... xD Why the heck does it solely occur with Roland SR and no other unit?

With other devices, it also occurs from time to time, but less frequently.

With the Roland, the armor comes into play - it would at least be nice if the radar was broken in a hit.

[D4n]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

With other devices, it also occurs from time to time, but less frequently.

With the Roland, the armor comes into play - it would at least be nice if the radar was broken in a hit.

Exactly! What I'm shocked about is that this bug probably has been ingame since release of Hornet HARM already. How the heck did none of the hundred-thousands of loyal Hornet customers report this bug between Hornet HARM release, january 2019, and JSOW release, which was a whopping 5 months later, june 2019?? Did the Hornet pilots back then give up on SEAD/A2G and only do A2A? Or were Hornet players simply lazy back then about reporting such massive bugs in forum?

Edited May 30, 2022 by D4n

[Harker]

Exactly! What I'm shocked about is that this bug probably has been ingame since release of Hornet HARM already. How the heck did none of the hundred-thousands of loyal Hornet customers report this bug between Hornet HARM release, january 2019, and JSOW release, which was a whopping 5 months later, june 2019?? Did the Hornet pilots back then give up on SEAD/A2G and only do A2A? Or were Hornet players simply lazy back then about reporting such massive bugs in forum?

I really hope you're being sarcastic here...

In any event, this has been brought up, reported and acknowledged multiple times, perhaps not specifically to the Roland, but certainly in general.

If the Roland has armor, it'll likely not receive proper damage from the HARM and that's a problem with the damage modeling.

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Harker:

In any event, this has been brought up, reported and acknowledged multiple times

how do you mean that exactly?

do you have links to the topic?

[D4n]

4 hours ago, Harker said:

I really hope you're being sarcastic here...

Only somewhat. But indeed, just like Hobel, I'm super curious aswell where that has been "brought up, reported and acknowledged" before, with ED obviously pretending to be working on fixing it, after such a long time and many reports, according to you

Edited May 30, 2022 by D4n

[Harker]

how do you mean that exactly?
do you have links to the topic?

I don't have links readily available, but there have been both reports and discussions about it in the Hornet (and I assume the Viper) forum(s). They should be easy enough to find with the help of the Search function.

The short explanation is that the HARM should detonate with a proxy fuse, so that shrapnel shreds the radar aperture, which is very sensitive.

In DCS, it does use a proxy fuse, but the problem is that radar apertures are not separately coded from the rest of the vehicle, so if the unit is armored, the radar is armored. Coupled with the lack of shrapnel modeling in DCS, this means that the "armored radar" takes no damage at all.

As for my first comment, I was just referring to OP's suggestion that Hornet pilots are lazy for not extensively testing against every single unit in DCS, as it if was their actual job. Every good bug report is a kindness to both the developers and the community and should be appreciated, not expected.

[Hobel]

 

@Harker

Thanks for the explanation, but then I don't understand when such things are marked as "correct as is".

[D4n]

14 hours ago, Harker said:

suggestion that Hornet pilots are lazy for not extensively testing against every single unit in DCS, as it if was their actual job.

I didn't say they should've tested against every single unit, I'm just saying that it's incredibly likely that several Hornet pilots already stumbled across this bug but have either not reported it, or have not pressured ED enough to fix this even before Hornet received JSOW or at least before our beloved Viper received HARM.

14 hours ago, Harker said:

Coupled with the lack of shrapnel modeling in DCS, this means that the "armored radar" takes no damage at all.

Shouldn't it be as simple as adding a specialized "armor-penetraton" variable to the HARM, so that if it hits a specified unit (like Roland SR), that that armor penetration variable is applied?