Kfir close enough to Nesher

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Just got announcement that DCS: Kfir is on its way. I figure Kfir is close enough to Nesher to be period realistic in South Atlantic conflict. Kfir is Israeli Mirage 5. Kfir is more advanced then Nesher used by Argentinians in 1982.

Gotta say. I did not see that one coming. But I rarely read the upcoming threads. Interesting type. 

So DCS would have three Mirages as separate mods. Mirage2000C, Mirage F1, and Kfir. 

[Stratos]

Kfir uses a different engine, it has more advanced avionics and it should weight far more than the Mirage V being a dedicated bomber.

[Dragon1-1]

RAZBAM is working on a Mirage III, too, so we'll see four Mirages in DCS after that one is done.

[Tom Kazansky]

28 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Just got announcement that DCS: Kfir is on its way. I figure Kfir is close enough to Nesher to be period realistic in South Atlantic conflict. Kfir is Israeli Mirage 5. Kfir is more advanced then Nesher used by Argentinians in 1982.

Gotta say. I did not see that one coming. But I rarely read the upcoming threads. Interesting type. 

So DCS would have three Mirages as separate mods. Mirage2000C, Mirage F1, and Kfir. 

Well there is a Nesher variant called Finger that is as close to the Kfir C.2 as it can get for your idea. It fits the timeframe but I'm not sure (at all) it was already part of the mentioned conflict:

"In the 1979 contract with IAI, the Argentine Air Force stipulated that the Daggers would be equipped with new avionics and HUD systems to take them to the Kfir C.2 (and beyond in some subsystems) standard. The program, named Finger, was underway in 1982 when the Falklands War broke out. With the war over, as some of these systems were made by the British Marconi Electronic Systems, they needed to be replaced after an arms embargo was imposed by the UK. The replacement of such systems took the planes to the final Finger IIIB standard mainly by replacing the British equipment with French-built Thomson-CSF."

read it here:

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/IAI_Nesher

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Well every nation has specific modifications to fit their needs and operating traditions for every type. Like I said Kfir is close enough to be Nesher for purposes of South Atlantic conflict. So yeah. Should be interesting. But I am no longer getting into any mod in early release. I got into AH-64D, its a great module, as I prefer rotary to fixed wing, I just don't like dealing with known and unknown bugs, if I encounter those. Back to Kfir. Having four Mirages , as separate mods, I lean towards that its enough. Overall DCS has too many Western Gen 3 and Gen 4 types. With F-15E and Typhoon modules on the way. There is a market for high fidelity DCS+ level Russia and Chinese types. JF-17 is proof of that.  I gather ED's policy is not to develop Russian and Chinese Gen 4 due to lack of open source documentation on type, as it is still in service. That's a shame. Perhaps Mig-29K as supplied to India. ED already has FC3 Mig-29C(S). Give it a functional pit and systems modeling. THe PLA fighter I find most interesting is J-10. Which is analogue to F-16C Block 42. I bet if ED or 3rd party releases high fidelity AN-2, people would jump on it. Although AN-2 would be a silly module for DCS. Wasn't ED and partner dev working on DCS: Mig-23?

[Mig Fulcrum]

5 ore fa, Dragon1-1 ha scritto:

RAZBAM is working on a Mirage III, too, so we'll see four Mirages in DCS after that one is done.

Don't forget that F1BE, F1EE and F1M will arrive so there will be SEVEN different Mirage.

Let's hope for a 2000-5 so we will get basically every Mirage.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Expanding a particular module to include variants of same type is more then acceptable. That should be common practice. What is not acceptable is a separate module for every variant.

Key is expansion pack. Not different module. 

Five or more Mirage modules is market oversaturation. Mirage2000-5 should be a expansion pack to RAZBAM's M2KC, provided it is RAZBAM that is developing it. Extend that concept to other key types in DCS. 

UH-1H to TwinHuey and UH-1N as modernization expansion pack. 

So on

[mkellytx]

The Kfir's no Nesher, but Columbia and Ecuador use/used them.  Probably could come up with some scenario on the map that could use them...

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 8/6/2022 at 3:20 PM, mkellytx said:

The Kfir's no Nesher, but Columbia and Ecuador use/used them.  Probably could come up with some scenario on the map that could use them...

TO emulate Neshers failrly, just arm them appropriately. No full aspect Python or Sidewinders. Rear aspect AIM-9P. I don't even know what munitions Kfir will have, but I expect full aspect Sidewinders, rear aspect 'Winders, Pythons of various generations, and assortment of freefall iron and cluster bombs.  Arm AV-8B with 4 AIM-9M as RNFAA Sea Harriers used AIM-9L which were 1st gen all aspect Sidewinders. No t-pod, but yes to gunpod. No NVG googles for RNFAA pilots, either.  Sea Harriers had Blue Fox radar, so that is one aspect that current DCS cannot cheat, unless someone makes a Sea Harrier variant. Can't have everything.

A-4EC maybe is more advanced then reconditioned A-4B/C Skyhawks that Argentine Navy had in 1982. But in DCS A-4E-C is good enough. Arm em with guns, M117 iron bombs, and rockets. Watching footage of ARG Skyhawks attacking RN surface combatants, and later firing AAA and ancient looking SAMs, the scenes looked liked WWII and Korea just fought with more modern aircraft. That one clip of AAA or SAM directly hitting one of the A-4's,  with Skyhawk just no longer existing. No wreckage. No flaming parts. Gotta find that on YT again. One second he flying, jinking, fighting, then WHAP!!! Explosion, dark puff, and nothing.

Overall between DCS : AV-8B, Kfir, A-4E-C. WWII Pack, and new South Atlantic map + assets pack, and standard DCS ground vehicle sets, throw in French assets pack for good measure. You got everything you need to recreate Falklands to your realistic heart's content.

 

For South African fans, Kfir closely resembles SA indigenous Atlas Cheetah. As it was developed from Nesher and Kfir. Real Cheetah was developed from Kfir, Nesher, and Mirage 3, and pit photos show fairly robust 4th gen pit with MFD.

[ak22]

On 8/6/2022 at 2:47 PM, Mig Fulcrum said:

Don't forget that F1BE, F1EE and F1M will arrive so there will be SEVEN different Mirage.

Let's hope for a 2000-5 so we will get basically every Mirage.

If we ever do get the 2000-5 then maybe we can get the Moroccan Mirage F1 MF2000 as well 

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

On 8/6/2022 at 7:23 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Five or more Mirage modules is market oversaturation.

Disagree.

We need more Mirages and Fishbeds to flesh out the CW. A Kfir is not a Mirage, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

Raz's Mirage III/5 family is direly needed. Even if they're only approximates for other customers' equipment.

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

12 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Disagree.

We need more Mirages and Fishbeds to flesh out the CW. A Kfir is not a Mirage, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

Raz's Mirage III/5 family is direly needed. Even if they're only approximates for other customers' equipment.

 

Well again. I am arguing that the way that variants of a type available as a module,  be offered not as separate modules, but as expansion packs to existing module. So a Mirage2000-5 would be offered as expansion to Mirage2000-C. MirageIII is a very different type then M2K_C, thus that would be a separate module. Westland Apache should not be a separate module, but an expansion pack to AH-64D.  F-15E from RAZBAM. Thus F-15SG the E variant for Singapore, F-15EK (South Korean), Baz (F-15E for Israel), are expansion packs for F-15E. 

[Baco]

Well the Kfir, is a much more potent weapons systems than the Mirage Nesher. Its like to pretending that an M2k with dumb weapons is an MIII.  

The Finger was finished after the war, so no Finger was deployed in 82.

Yes the Kfir could stand in for the Finger since the project was finished with a lot of IAI´s help. Very similar avionics and systems. You would still have a more powerful and reliable engine tho...

 

I truly hope that Razbam delivers a nice Nesher, or MIII CJ or EA or something from the period.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Baco

[Tiger-II]

We definitely the deployed the finger during the war.

I don't think many aircraft in DCS are too advanced. The major thing is no RADAR guided air-to-air beyond the earliest models of missiles, and F/A-18 and F-16 didn't participate.

The Viggen wouldn't be out of place, for example. Could even be interesting.

The F-5 would also work.

I know, not strictly period, but similar level of technology/capability.

The Harrier is a near-perfect fit.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Tiger-II

[Bremspropeller]

On 8/17/2022 at 4:25 AM, Baco said:

Well the Kfir, is a much more potent weapons systems than the Mirage Nesher. Its like to pretending that an M2k with dumb weapons is an MIII.  

Depends. The Kfir C2 isn't really that much of an impressive aircraft, compared to what some Mirage III/5/50 variants could do. It's particularily lacking in the radar department.

The Mirage and Nesher could carry quite a bit. It's not like the Nesher/ Mirage 5 lacked conventional bombing capability:

What the Kfir later added was two additional pylons below the fwd wing-root. Like on this Kfir COA (colombian C.10).

Edited August 23, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Baco]

YEs in principle, yes but I believe the engine of the Kfir gives it the edge in power to weight ratio and better aerodynamics with the canards. a more stable platform.

Also I am not very versed on the Kfir but the Nesher had no bombing aids I believe and i think the Kfir did introduce some kind of ccip or at least a rudimentary ccrp.

Still yes dealing with DCS we need to use what we have and sometimes is not ideal. but the F1 is more age related and same avionics suit in case of the CE at least. so yeha until we get a Nesher/Dagger we can only use what we have.