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Desired Features for future track system rework


Exorcet

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It's well know that the track feature in DCS needs a rework so that inputs/random events don't cause the replay to deviate from what happened originally. I know there is no timeline on this, however I feel like it would be worth it to highlight nice to have features to be added to the track system when it is fixed, whenever that is. It's also easier to adopt new ideas earlier into the project, so hopefully some of then gain traction now rather than later.

Wish items:

-Track reliability, above all this would be the goal of the rework, all other features are nice to have

-rewind

-save state (ie the ability to create a save state from any point in the track to be loaded later and either take control or continue watching)

-jump to time, may not be possible without a save state since tracks don't have position data, etc, but would be a nice feature if track recording gains the ability to save the entire sim state, or perhaps the track could create a save state every X minutes (user option?) and allow jumping between them

-multiple save states to increase track reliability, save states to could be used to "resync" tracks every so often at the cost of more disc space usage

-ability to divide a track file into multiple files

-ability to change settings for views, labels, etc without having to open and edit files in Notepad++, etc

-ability to change aircraft liveries

-ability to change time and weather* (already possible, however might break when clouds are changed to affect the AI. One solution could be to add a warning that AI may break and let users use this at their own discretion)

-bookmarks to make note of interesting points in track

-alternative recording method, perhaps DCS could have an option to record and temporary store the last played mission as a video as well as a track, or possibly some other format entirely. This would allow some form of recording to be kept even if the track fails to replay properly. Could have user options to enable or disable as well as limit the length of recording (10 min, 30 min, 1 hr, 2hr, unlimited, etc)

If anyone else is interested in this, feel free to suggest more features.


Edited by Exorcet
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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, MAXsenna said:

+1 to all of the above

Bookmarks, and add ability to move/delete/add more later

Fast forward

Time jump

Bookmarks sound like a good idea actually, could also be useful for bug reporting.

Fast Forward should be covered with time acceleration that we have already.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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16 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Fast Forward should be covered with time acceleration that we have already.

I worded it incorrectly. I meant FF and RW (Rewind), like a slider you can drag back and forth.

In general, I really hope they make the whole system like a video player. 😊 

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On 8/9/2022 at 6:34 AM, Exorcet said:

It's well know that the track feature in DCS needs a rework so that inputs/random events don't cause the replay to deviate from what happened originally.

Fundamentally, that's the main feature that a new system really needs: to no longer be based on inputs but on outputs. All the problems and limitations we have with the current system are borne out of the non-deterministic path between the former and the latter, and for a track to really be worth anything outside of a 30-second test, the outcome is really all that matters.

The tricky part then becomes a bit of the opposite: how do you create a track system that records and replays outcomes, but which still allows you to jump in and take control half-way through? That's the (one) benefit the input-based system gives, and which is hard to recreate without simply running the two recordings in parallel.

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Personally I think if we want the ability to jump in and take control, they should make that a separate feature from the track recording feature.

When I want to record a session, the important point is to be able to record the inputs and outputs of what actually happened when it happened, not what happened after I took control while watching it.

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5 hours ago, Tippis said:

Fundamentally, that's the main feature that a new system really needs: to no longer be based on inputs but on outputs.

I'm not convinced of this. ED isn't the only one to use an input based system. I've seen the same thing used in other games while being much, much more reliable. Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with input reading. If you record all the relevant information from the mission, the track should turn out exactly the same. Not even random events are a problem, all you need is the same seed.

Though I suppose that there could be an option to switch from the tradition track system to a replay video system, or some other alternative. DCS has the record to avi feature left over from Lock On that I don't think I've seen anyone use (I tried it exactly once probably a decade ago and it made my computer fall to its knees, I wonder if that's still the case). Maybe that could be revamped along with tracks.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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On 8/9/2022 at 12:34 AM, Exorcet said:

-ability to change time and weather* (might be problematic since these things affect the AI, however they could be useful if watching a track of a solo flight. The solution would be to add a warning that AI may break and let users use this at their own discretion)

Just want to note that you can already do this…in the ME.

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5 hours ago, Ironhand said:

Just want to note that you can already do this…in the ME.

So we can. I didn't realize the ME could save tracks, and I thought loading them required file extension renaming externally. It's good to be wrong every so often.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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4 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

... but only after multicore implementation for DCS please.

How about the same time as multicore. Multicore is about 9 months late so Eagle needs to focus on that. Still I think it would be awesome if Eagle worked on a deal with the folks doing TacView and incorporated into DCS core. 

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42 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Still I think it would be awesome if Eagle worked on a deal with the folks doing TacView and incorporated into DCS core. 

Tacview is already incorporated into DCS. It’s a separate install but you can manage it’s settings and such within the game under the Options/ Special tab. In any case Tacview is not the type of replay track feature this thread is asking for. 


Edited by SharpeXB

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10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Tacview is already incorporated into DCS. It’s a separate install but you can manage it’s settings and such within the game under the Options/ Special tab. In any case Tacview is not the type of replay track feature this thread is asking for. 

 

Tacview isn't a default feature in DCS but it should be --part of the trac system ACMI view

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2 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Tacview isn't a default feature in DCS but it should be --part of the trac system ACMI view

Tacview is a completely different thing than the DCS replay track. That should be obvious. Why should ED build this functionality when it’s already available from a 3rd party for free. Plus DCS does integrate with it very well. I don’t see your point. 

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43 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Tacview is already incorporated into DCS.

No. It's a third-party product that is not in any way related to DCS.

28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Tacview is a completely different thing than the DCS replay track.

No. Tacview is an extension and continuation of the functionality that existed in comparable products go back 30+ years — the very functionality that made them create the replay feature to begin with. Except DCS' implementation is… lacking. Severely so.

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Why should ED build this functionality when it’s already available from a 3rd party for free

Because they already have. Just poorly and backwards. They should finish the feature they started building and make it work properly, like the features that inspired it always did. Because it's is not particularly sensible or worth-while to leave features broken and rotting away in the background rather than finishing them an making the game a more full-featured and functional experience.

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3 hours ago, Tippis said:

They should finish the feature they started building and make it work properly

Well I think everyone would like the replay function to work and perhaps have some additional features. Myself included. 

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12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well I think everyone would like the replay function to work and perhaps have some additional features. Myself included. 

Clearly not.

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19 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Clearly not.

How do you figure? Here I’ll state my wish here clearly. 
I agree that it would be great if DCS had a working track replay feature. 

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25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How do you figure?

Because you're arguing against it.

You're even arguing against it on the basis that there is a mod — something you've declared a gigantic waste of time — that does some of the things that are being asked for, but without the full integration in the game.


Edited by Tippis
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1 minute ago, Tippis said:

Because you're arguing against it.

Didn’t I just say I was in favor of it? I don’t see what Tacview has to do with this feature in DCS though. Apparently fixing or redoing the replay system is a big deal. It’s probably not as easy as just importing Tacview into the game. 

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Just now, SharpeXB said:

Didn’t I just say I was in favor of it?

And yet you're arguing against it.

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t see what Tacview has to do with this feature in DCS though.

You don't see how a track replay software that can record and export some data from DCS relates to DCS' capability to record tracks and then replay them — a capability DCS has for the same reason the track recording software exists? Really? Are you quite sure this is the line of reasoning you want to go with? 🤣

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s probably not as easy as just importing Tacview into the game. 

Good thing no-one has suggested that, then. But actually, yes, it really could be that easy even if that wouldn't fulfil the original request.

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9 minutes ago, Tippis said:

You don't see how a track replay software that can record and export some data from DCS relates to DCS' capability to record tracks and then replay them — a capability DCS has for the same reason the track recording software exists? Really? Are you quite sure this is the line of reasoning you want to go with?

If it was that easy then it would already be fixed. But it’s been broken for years and years. Maybe someone who knows how this works can provide some insight. 

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Just now, SharpeXB said:

If it was that easy then it would already be fixed.

That's not actually how development works, but never mind… Who said anything about it being easy to complete and fix DCS' track recording and replay feature?

Importing tacview would be easy for the simple reason that it already is easy. But as mentioned, that wouldn't fulfil the original request — only the part where we'd have a system like tacview (by virtue of it being tacview).

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Maybe someone who knows how this works can provide some insight. 

The insight has already been provided: the problem with DCS' (single-player) track recording is that it records control inputs and that those do not deterministically yield a reliable and repeatable outcome. Be it sampling errors or randomisation or other details not related to input, this input focus is nice in that it allows for taking control in the middle of a recording (and occasionally for debugging systems scripting) but not very good for actually recording the full state of the game… much less replaying it.

Now, the multiplayer recordings on the other hand…

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