Newbie getting rekt on PvP server, need advices

[cmbaviator]

Hello gents,

 

Been flying on DCS for 2 Weeks even though i bought the F16 module when it first hit early access but haven't flown it since maybe just a couple of hours before deleting DCS.

 

Even though i've been watching famous youtuber on DCS for 1-2 years, i've only been flying the F16 since last week-end. started the PVE server last saturday for A-A trainning, then last sunday did some PvP and i must say that i got shot down a lot of time, i only been able to "trade" kills before dying at best.

 

Will post several videos of the encounter + the tac view so you guys could maybe give me advices.

 

PS: i don't understand how that Foe could dodge those 2 missiles in the second encounter not even mentionning how that F16 from the deck manage to lock me and launch a missile like in less than 5 sec, maybe because of datalink ? he could lock me but i couldn't get any lock from the targets below me
 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by cmbaviator

[_SteelFalcon_]

It may help you understand the current limitations of the radar by reading this bug report. In short: you currently are at a disadvantage if you are generally above your enemy.

and the amraams current state doesnt necessarily help the user either, there‘s reports about that too in the weapon bugs section.

without opening the can of worms that this all is:

try not to fly straight nose on, put the bandit on or close to your gimbal limits when taking a shot, defend nose low, use terrain to disappear behind etc. 
but most of all: practice, watch tacviews to see what you did and what your enemy did, and repeat.

always be aware of the medium range heaters that russian jets can carry.

[Viciam1]

2 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

Hello gents,

 

Been flying on DCS for 2 Weeks even though i bought the F16 module when it first hit early access but haven't flown it since maybe just a couple of hours before deleting DCS.

 

Even though i've been watching famous youtuber on DCS for 1-2 years, i've only been flying the F16 since last week-end. started the PVE server last saturday for A-A trainning, then last sunday did some PvP and i must say that i got shot down a lot of time, i only been able to "trade" kills before dying at best.

 

Will post several videos of the encounter + the tac view so you guys could maybe give me advices.

 

PS: i don't understand how that Foe could dodge those 2 missiles in the second encounter not even mentionning how that F16 from the deck manage to lock me and launch a missile like in less than 5 sec, maybe because of datalink ? he could lock me but i couldn't get any lock from the targets below me
 

 

 

Its unrealistic to assume that you can go into pvp after only 2 weeks of dcs and have more kills than deaths on a consistent basis. Most people on these pvp servers have been flying a long time and know what they are doing. They have repeatedly failed and seen almost all scenarios play out on their road to becoming good pvp pilots. But we all start at the begining and kudos to you for asking questions. I can already tell you will soon become a good pvp pilot. Just give it time, keep flying.

Here's a few tips I learnt and keep in mind before flying:

1. Don't have a one dimensional plan before take off. Let things play out, observe and act accordingly instead. Each time you join a server...the situation is a little different

2. Don't create the situational advantage. Let others make mistakes and you take advantage of their ego, ignorance or lack of skill by observing whats around you. If you notice a bandit in a weak position, go for it. But know what a weak position is first. Generally low and slow. 

3. Always assume a missile is headed your way. Act fast, don't hang around mid air flying straight after you've shot your missile. Be aggressive in your defence, fire and get the heck outta their to a safe place where you can regain your situational awareness and put your aircraft in an advantagous position to turn back in

3. Have a calm mind. Everyone can fly and shoot missiles. But the one who wins is the one who can remain calm yet quick in manouvers.

4. You don't have to get into every single battle. Pick yours smartly. As the real life fighter ace red baron said...I'm alive not because I won every battle. I'm alive because of the ones I didn't enter.

5. The mountains are your friends for dodging missiles and getting away from someone on your six and or in a position to kill you. But don't hang around too long in the valleys. Go in, defend, lose the bandit of you and get high and fast again as soon as safely possible. 

6. Pick one aircraft and master it. This way you'll instantly know its ability and the controls/buttons on your joystick will flow through your fingers seamlessly, even in tight pressure situations. I exclusively fly f16 98% of the time. Ocassionally I'll fly hind or something in PVE or free flight just for a change. 

And with time, you'll be able to add your own creativity and ideas into your style of flying/fighting. 

All the best. 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Viciam1

[cmbaviator]

17 minutes ago, Viciam1 said:

Its unrealistic to assume that you can go into pvp after only 2 weeks of dcs and have more kills than deaths on a consistent basis. Most people on these pvp servers have been flying a long time and know what they are doing. They have repeatedly failed and seen almost all scenarios play out on their road to becoming good pvp pilots. But we all start at the begining and kudos to you for asking questions. I can already tell you will soon become a good pvp pilot. Just give it time, keep flying.

Here's a few tips I learnt and keep in mind before flying:

1. Don't have a one dimensional plan before take off. Let things play out, observe and act accordingly instead. Each time you join a server...the situation is a little different

2. Don't create the situational advantage. Let others make mistakes and you take advantage of their ego, ignorance or lack of skill by observing whats around you. If you notice a bandit in a weak position, go for it. But know what a weak position is first. Generally low and slow. 

3. Always assume a missile is headed your way. Act fast, don't hang around mid air flying straight after you've shot your missile. Be aggressive in your defence, fire and get the heck outta their to a safe place where you can regain your situational awareness and put your aircraft in an advantagous position to turn back in

3. Have a calm mind. Everyone can fly and shoot missiles. But the one who wins is the one who can remain calm yet quick in manouvers.

4. You don't have to get into every single battle. Pick yours smartly. As the real life fighter ace red baron said...I'm alive not because I won every battle. I'm alive because of the ones I didn't enter.

5. The mountains are your friends for dodging missiles and getting away from someone on your six and or in a position to kill you. But don't hang around too long in the valleys. Go in, defend, lose the bandit of you and get high and fast again as soon as safely possible. 

6. Pick one aircraft and master it. This way you'll instantly know its ability and the controls/buttons on your joystick will flow through your fingers seamlessly, even in tight pressure situations. I exclusively fly f16 98% of the time. Ocassionally I'll fly hind or something in PVE or free flight just for a change. 

And with time, you'll be able to add your own creativity and ideas into your style of flying/fighting. 

All the best. 

 

 

Thanks for your input 

Edited August 9, 2022 by cmbaviator

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb cmbaviator:

Hello gents,

 

Been flying on DCS for 2 Weeks even though i bought the F16 module when it first hit early access but haven't flown it since maybe just a couple of hours before deleting DCS.

 

Even though i've been watching famous youtuber on DCS for 1-2 years, i've only been flying the F16 since last week-end. started the PVE server last saturday for A-A trainning, then last sunday did some PvP and i must say that i got shot down a lot of time, i only been able to "trade" kills before dying at best.

 

Will post several videos of the encounter + the tac view so you guys could maybe give me advices.

 

PS: i don't understand how that Foe could dodge those 2 missiles in the second encounter not even mentionning how that F16 from the deck manage to lock me and launch a missile like in less than 5 sec, maybe because of datalink ? he could lock me but i couldn't get any lock from the targets below me
 

 

 

It's best to find a squadron that deals with PvP. 

Tacview is a must have tool! 

Try to avoid the GrowlingSidewinder server if you want to get good. 

[cmbaviator]

1 minute ago, Hobel said:

It's best to find a squadron that deals with PvP. 

Tacview is a must have tool! 

Try to avoid the GrowlingSidewinder server if you want to get good. 

Thats the point, I'm alone. i found a french discord server that have their own server but its only PvE...

 

Why? the Growling Sidewinder players are too good ?

[_SteelFalcon_]

20 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

Why? the Growling Sidewinder players are too good ?

Depends. Some are, some are not. The mix makes it, and it differs every hour almost. I avoid it when it‘s full, because it‘s just a clusterf… of missiles everywhere. There‘s no real skill involved in killing a guy that is already dealing with 20 other missiles.

or you‘re positioning yourself nicely for a kill and some triggerhappy lad spooks your guy with a missile and you can wave your position goodbye.

half full, you get actually decent combat at times.

[Viciam1]

growling sidewinder isnt the best place to learn for a new person. But its defo the place to go once you are competent in pvp. Once you consistently get kills and own deaths are low or none in the GS server...all other pvp servers seem much easier to get kills. 

I tried gs server a year ago, couldnt get kills or like you it was trade for a trade kill. I gave up on it...stuck with pve. Doing ground rolls and air combat against pve. One day got bored of that, decided to hop into gs and started getting 8-0 scores consistently. Now I mainly fly pvp GS server. Yesterday I went into 4ya pvp server and got 5 kills in a single sortie with 6 amraams onboard. It all seemed too easy. People flying around straight and level. You won't find that often in the GS server  

 

[cmbaviator]

31 minutes ago, Viciam1 said:

growling sidewinder isnt the best place to learn for a new person. But its defo the place to go once you are competent in pvp. Once you consistently get kills and own deaths are low or none in the GS server...all other pvp servers seem much easier to get kills. 

I tried gs server a year ago, couldnt get kills or like you it was trade for a trade kill. I gave up on it...stuck with pve. Doing ground rolls and air combat against pve. One day got bored of that, decided to hop into gs and started getting 8-0 scores consistently. Now I mainly fly pvp GS server. Yesterday I went into 4ya pvp server and got 5 kills in a single sortie with 6 amraams onboard. It all seemed too easy. People flying around straight and level. You won't find that often in the GS server  

 

Jeez, i feel like dog sh*t haha. thanks for the info. i'm in western europe, isnt the GS server in the USA ?

[Hobel]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb cmbaviator:

Thats the point, I'm alone. i found a french discord server that have their own server but its only PvE...

 

Why? the Growling Sidewinder players are too good ?

Too good opponents are always good, that would not be the problem.  In principle, what steelfalcon says. 

If you made a kill on GS against someone who didn't know what they were doing or was distracted, what did you learn?
Similar the other way around.

 

 

You learn best and fastest in a 1vs1.  In my early days I got shot down by squadron friends over far 50-100 times in one evening, but every dead always showed me my mistakes and I quickly got better.

 

 

[cmbaviator]

1 minute ago, Hobel said:

Too good opponents are always good, that would not be the problem.  In principle, what steelfalcon says. 

If you made a kill on GS against someone who didn't know what they were doing or was distracted, what did you learn?
Similar the other way around.

 

 

You learn best and fastest in a 1vs1.  In my early days I got shot down by squadron friends over far 50-100 times in one evening, but every dead always showed me my mistakes and I quickly got better.

 

 

I see, but it seems that PvP while being Solo is hard. when i played last Weekend, it was like 15 vs 15 and seems chaotic not mentionning all the SAM AI as well in addition.

 

Last week i was studying and flying the JF17 and so far i don't know if should continue with the JF17 or the F16 or maybe buy and try the F18, don't know if the 2 weeks Trial is a still a thing on the F18

[_SteelFalcon_]

26 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

I see, but it seems that PvP while being Solo is hard. when i played last Weekend, it was like 15 vs 15 and seems chaotic not mentionning all the SAM AI as well in addition.

 

Last week i was studying and flying the JF17 and so far i don't know if should continue with the JF17 or the F16 or maybe buy and try the F18, don't know if the 2 weeks Trial is a still a thing on the F18

plan way ahead, position yourself so that an opponent has to come to you, play on your terms. plan your safe egress headings already before even thinking about to take a shot. be patient. don't rush an engagement just because you really really want to shoot someone, it might put you in a bad position afterwards.

check known SAM sites, check other friendly assets that you could drag a bandit towards and thus put pressure on the enemy, forcing him to make mistakes. plan a safe egress heading. with that in mind, you can plan your attack accordingly and position yourself ideally. the F-16s HSD page with it's great SA is a very powerful tool. 

[Hobel]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb cmbaviator:

I see, but it seems that PvP while being Solo is hard. when i played last Weekend, it was like 15 vs 15 and seems chaotic not mentionning all the SAM AI as well in addition.

 

Last week i was studying and flying the JF17 and so far i don't know if should continue with the JF17 or the F16 or maybe buy and try the F18, don't know if the 2 weeks Trial is a still a thing on the F18

 

F18 is much more difficult to handle in pvp a/a to give an example.

In f16 you see the altitude of all contacts on the radar/Hsi side, in f18 you have to switch through all contacts or select them individually.

F16 is king of overview and usability. Hotas logic is also much better

But test 2 weeks the f18 am curious about your verdict.

[cmbaviator]

9 minutes ago, Hobel said:

 

F18 is much more difficult to handle in pvp a/a to give an example.

In f16 you see the altitude of all contacts on the radar/Hsi side, in f18 you have to switch through all contacts or select them individually.

F16 is king of overview and usability. Hotas logic is also much better

But test 2 weeks the f18 am curious about your verdict.

I see. how to test the F18 for 2 weeks, i only see the buy option ??

 

The F18 can be the kind in BVR, cant it load like 10 missiles ? I saw someone on the server with like 10 missiles loaded with the F18

[Viciam1]

44 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

I see, but it seems that PvP while being Solo is hard. when i played last Weekend, it was like 15 vs 15 and seems chaotic not mentionning all the SAM AI as well in addition.

 

Last week i was studying and flying the JF17 and so far i don't know if should continue with the JF17 or the F16 or maybe buy and try the F18, don't know if the 2 weeks Trial is a still a thing on the F18

It seems chaotic and hard because you are new. Eventually you get better at knowing your surroundings and feel more comfortable. The chaotic and over whelming feeling is absolutely normal so don't worry about that. I promise it gets easier. Even now I get a sense of chaos when there are so many bandits and friendlies around on your HSD that you don't know what to do. At these moments its best to pick off a weak positioned bandit who is careless or be patient. Just fly around a little, stay back until an opporunity presents itself. And an opprunity always presents itself...there's always an overly hungry, less thoughtful, less skilled, over aggressive bandit flying around in the enemy ranks.

Always remember...if you can shoot him, he can shoot you. Unless your up against an f14. Then you just avoid him at long range altogether. His missile will out range you by miles.

Yes GS is in the USA I think but you can join any server from anywhere in the world. 

4 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

I see. how to test the F18 for 2 weeks, i only see the buy option ??

 

The F18 can be the kind in BVR, cant it load like 10 missiles ? I saw someone on the server with like 10 missiles loaded with the F18

F16 is King in BVR, make no mistake. The speed and ease of in cockpit makes it the best hands down.

[Furiz]

5 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

Even though i've been watching famous youtuber on DCS for 1-2 years

They cant teach you good tactics, they are not real fighter jet pilots (even if they are they wouldn't be able to talk about tactics in detail), they are like you or me, just simmers.

Two weeks is enough to learn the basics, but to really learn how to use the airframe will take longer than that, you have to learn capabilities of your aircraft and of your opponents as well, which kind of missiles they use vs missiles you have, how good are their radars and how to use the weak spots, also Situational Awareness etc... takes more than 2 weeks time to learn.

My advice is to stick to one airframe, and learn it well, keep practicing and don't lose hope. This is a simulation, a very good one, so don't expect to have 40 kills in one sortie like in other "sims". Check real world statistics for example, you can google how many kills does aim120 have in real world and vs which opponents, you'll be surprised by the search result.

Most importantly have fun!

[arb65912]

15 minutes ago, Furiz said:

They cant teach you good tactics, they are not real fighter jet pilots (even if they are they wouldn't be able to talk about tactics in detail), they are like you or me, just simmers.

So where do we learn things properly? Any sources? 

[Furiz]

9 minutes ago, arb65912 said:

So where do we learn things properly? Any sources? 

If you can get some private lessons from some pilot willing to teach you... otherwise I don't see any good source for military tacts. YouTubers are mostly gamers making money. Specially those that have 2 uploads per week about every possible aircraft.

 

P.S. Learn from the guy that shoot you down, he obviously did something better;P

Edited August 9, 2022 by Furiz

[Viciam1]

Growling sidewinders older youtube videos are a goldmine for learning basics. Especially with the tacview that follows. Watch his bvr stuff. Its really good. 

[cmbaviator]

there is an ex French Rafale pilot that gives advise on his YT channel, called ATé

 

 

[Hobel]

Otherwise go to the satal discord there are a few tacviews online from there you can see how the teams play in dcs a/a pvp at high level.

 

https://discord.gg/cwVZenyK

[cmbaviator]

 

 

I didn't understand how i crashed at the end, my speed was above 300 KIAS but i dropped like a potato

[_SteelFalcon_]

You‘re pulling very hard on the stick, looks like an accelerated stall. Ease off the stick

[cmbaviator]

15 minutes ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

You‘re pulling very hard on the stick, looks like an accelerated stall. Ease off the stick

thats a weird thing, if your AOA is  below the Stall AoA, you can't stall, even at level wing, i was still "stalling"

[Aquorys]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:53 PM, Furiz said:

They [various famous youtubers, A/N] cant teach you good tactics, they are not real fighter jet pilots (even if they are they wouldn't be able to talk about tactics in detail), they are like you or me, just simmers.

It all tends to be very arcade-like on the PvP servers. People turning and burning low, other people flying high, and generally everyone constantly flying on full afterburner from takeoff to landing, or I should probably say, from takeoff to respawn, all of that just isn't too realistic. A lot of it works on those servers, because noone is afraid to die, as it would be the case in real life. Half of the people never make it home, either because they get shot down, or because they run out of fuel and then just respawn. People do 9G turns with 2 wing tanks and external jammers, F/A-18s do 9G turns with no consequences, etc.

Of course it can be fun, just don't expect it to be realistic tactics-wise.

What would be really hilarious to watch would be a handful of WIC instructors doing a weapons-free BVR mission on one of those famous servers, like Growling Sidewinder's or Grim Reapers', etc. - and unfortunately that is never going to happen, because they would not give away their tactics for everyone to watch - but I promise you, if it happened, the skies on all of those servers would be clear very quickly and these guys would most probably all go back to their home base in undamaged aircraft.