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Help needed with creating a default cockpit view


captain_dalan

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Hey guys, i need some help (like the title suggests) with creating a new default view for the F-14. After much experimentation i found out what works best for me, most of the time. And it looks something like this (the FoV isn't important here, the the direction of the "forward being towards the bore" does:
image.png
I tried saving the look through the face tracking software but it doesn't work that well for me, so i'd like the make this a more permanent. Can anyone translate this view into a preset and instruct me how to make the changes to DCS myself? 

Thanks in advance! 

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Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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@captain_dalan

How did you try to make it?

I assume you know about the RCtrl + RShft + Num keys to change the FOV, and head position, and RAlt + Num0 to save it. 

Just make sure you turn of head tracking before you change the view, and you save before enabling it again. 

Or are you talking about something else? 


Edited by MAXsenna
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Go to your c:\users\yourname\savedgames\dcs\config\views folder.

Therein are to files:

Server.lua and snapview.lua .

The latter looks like this:

There you can fine tune all values by hand and save them for good. Make sure, you are in chapter 13 "default" and in the right cockpit.

image.png

You can tune your view in game and save the snapview (enable user snapviews in the settings) with RAlt+Num0. The values will be saved in the above location.


Edited by Hiob
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You may want to check, that the min and max zoom are to your liking as well. See this part of the server.lua:

 

null

image.png


Edited by Hiob
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On 8/18/2022 at 9:54 PM, MAXsenna said:

@captain_dalan

How did you try to make it?

I assume you know about the RCtrl + RShft + Num keys to change the FOV, and head position, and RAlt + Num0 to save it. 

Just make sure you turn of head tracking before you change the view, and you save before enabling it again. 

Or are you talking about something else? 

 

I tried this, and it is what i'm using now, but it has it's limitations. Like no way to lean forward I.E. 
 

On 8/18/2022 at 11:35 PM, Hiob said:

Go to your c:\users\yourname\savedgames\dcs\config\views folder.

Therein are to files:

Server.lua and snapview.lua .

The latter looks like this:

There you can fine tune all values by hand and save them for good. Make sure, you are in chapter 13 "default" and in the right cockpit.

image.png

You can tune your view in game and save the snapview (enable user snapviews in the settings) with RAlt+Num0. The values will be saved in the above location.

 

This is in fact what i've been looking for. Thanks mate, i owe you one! Bookmarking this and trying it ASAP. 

On 8/18/2022 at 11:48 PM, Hiob said:

The FOV value from your picture is about "105". Just edit the line in the snapview.lua

The FoV won't be an issue, i have that assigned to a rotary, so i can easily change it in real time, depending on what i'm currently doing in the cockpit. Thanks again for the pointers! 

EDIT: what's the legend behind hAngle, vAngle, x_trans, y_trans, z_trans and rollAngle.

EDIT 2: NVM. Trial and error is a fast teacher! Got around to it in no time! 


Edited by captain_dalan
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Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Camera position in all three space dimensions and camera angle in all space dimensions.

Fov is zoom aka (virtual) focal length.

Even if you can easily zoom in and out, this is the "default" value that is triggered by numEnter.

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On 8/21/2022 at 8:35 PM, captain_dalan said:

The FoV won't be an issue, i have that assigned to a rotary, so i can easily change it in real time, depending on what i'm currently doing in the cockpit.

Just mind that 15% (vertical) of your OP image is canopy rail so it wouldn't be best default view.

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58 minutes ago, draconus said:

Just mind that 15% (vertical) of your OP image is canopy rail so it wouldn't be best default view.

w/o trackIR (or VR) you're screwed anyway in this cockpit.... 😅 God bless the engineers of the Viper!

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8 hours ago, draconus said:

Just mind that 15% (vertical) of your OP image is canopy rail so it wouldn't be best default view.

It is and it isn't, like @Hiobsaid, there isn't a single best view for a static PoV. I.E. my current setup (which i will attach bellow) gives a better view over the nose, centers the view at the boresight (allowing for easier turn coordination) and gives better low calls (by Jester) recognition and interpretation. It also gives better low (as in over the canopy) spotting as long as you haven't disabled your lateral in cockpit camera movement (no idea why some people do that). However, the price i pay is that, when centered the gun ammo counter is hidden by the hook handle and the hydraulic switch is not accessible when you remove the cover. Fortunately, my time in VR has gotten me used to moving around in my chair and even more fortunately, i don't suffer from mobility impairments of any kind, so these are easily solved by just a slight nudge to a side, or a lean back.

Here's a video of yesterday's test:

 


And a screenshot of the default settings, in case anyone wants to experiment with them further and maybe refine them:

image.png

If you do, please to write in this thread, i am very interested in your findings and even more so in your modifications and default view preferences! 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Honestly you’re either not quite high enough, or not forward enough. You should see the yaw string at least a little. 
 

The sim gives a false sense of distance, with it’s projection. You’re real close to the panel in the plane in reality. Like your elbow is still bent reaching at stuff close. The glareshield should feel like it’s right about over your knees in VR. And really the towel rack should feel like a folded up sun visor. It’s in front of you, but not really directly in your normal line of sight. On a 2D screen projection you really shouldn’t be wasting pixels on it if you can head track to glance at the mirrors.


Edited by RustBelt
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8 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Honestly you’re either not quite high enough, or not forward enough. You should see the yaw string at least a little. 

The nose and the string are indeed visible when from completely neutral. It's once you start pulling and rolling g's that the view goes down a bit. Also, when reading the instruments i "kneel" down a bit, usually during taxi. Snapshots from the default neutral view:
 image.jpegnull

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

8 hours ago, RustBelt said:

The sim gives a false sense of distance, with it’s projection. You’re real close to the panel in the plane in reality. Like your elbow is still bent reaching at stuff close. The glareshield should feel like it’s right about over your knees in VR. And really the towel rack should feel like a folded up sun visor. It’s in front of you, but not really directly in your normal line of sight. On a 2D screen projection you really shouldn’t be wasting pixels on it if you can head track to glance at the mirrors.

 

This is indeed a major problem, and one i haven't been able to solve thus far. Shifting the PoV forward, makes looking back really awkward, like your seat and headrest are half a meter away or more. Narrowing the PoV on the other hand, can bring the object in their seeming places, but then it feels like you are flying with horse-blinders or a toilet paper over your face. So i usually try to narrow or widen the FoV based on current needs during flight (like in that video) with the radial, but it's not a perfect solution. Suggestions are welcome!  


EDIT:
This is about as close i can get it to the ACM panel without sacrificing too much functionality or distorting the perspective to the level of a refused meal, sent back to the provider the same way it  came. Should the sitting position be further up? (FOV is 105 in this case, 130 gave a strong fish-eye effect)

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

 


Edited by captain_dalan
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Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Problem is, I can't tell as where I'm sitting and my monitor change all the arrangements. 

The lower picture looks overly fisheyed. And that will make you queazy. 

The upper picture should crop out more of the upper frame. and the canopy jettison should ideally be at the edge of the frame. 

It's a Zolly problem. You would need to find the spot and "zoom" to get the perspective more correct, right now the vanishing points are putting you in a compromised spot both for reading dials and seeing out the front. 

It will always be some compromise not in VR. I was never able to manage it without having a Zoom axis. It becomes second nature quickly. 

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2 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Problem is, I can't tell as where I'm sitting and my monitor change all the arrangements. 

The lower picture looks overly fisheyed. And that will make you queazy. 

The upper picture should crop out more of the upper frame. and the canopy jettison should ideally be at the edge of the frame. 

It's a Zolly problem. You would need to find the spot and "zoom" to get the perspective more correct, right now the vanishing points are putting you in a compromised spot both for reading dials and seeing out the front. 

It will always be some compromise not in VR. I was never able to manage it without having a Zoom axis. It becomes second nature quickly. 

That's what the radial is for though. The above 3 snapshots were all taken with different zoom/fov settings. It helps that the radial can be operated with the pinky so it doesn't impair functionality in other ways. I was more interested in the exact seating position, as FoV can vary from headset to headset. Back in the day when i used one, it had only about 90 or so degrees. The best there are now are what, in the order of 120? 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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In my final year of using monitor+headtracking I used fixed real fov calculated for my position against monitor size - it was about 63 degrees in DCS - with the goal of the mostly correct real size proportions. It got me nice and clear view of both outside and cockpit. I did not change the default head position. I also deactivated longitudinal axis as it was redundant and doubling with actual head movement toward to and back from the monitor. I never missed the wider fov.

All this is not even close to how better and real it looks in VR and I just cringe every time I test something on a distorted and paralax-less one-eyed 2d view.

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53 minutes ago, draconus said:

In my final year of using monitor+headtracking I used fixed real fov calculated for my position against monitor size - it was about 63 degrees in DCS - with the goal of the mostly correct real size proportions. It got me nice and clear view of both outside and cockpit. I did not change the default head position. I also deactivated longitudinal axis as it was redundant and doubling with actual head movement toward to and back from the monitor. I never missed the wider fov.

All this is not even close to how better and real it looks in VR and I just cringe every time I test something on a distorted and paralax-less one-eyed 2d view.

What equations did you use in the calculations?

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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2 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

What equations did you use in the calculations?

You need a little bit of trigonometry. Basically you need to calculate the Angle of a triangle between your eyes and the left and right edge of your monitor. The angle is your fov.

I can't give you the exact formula from the top of my head, but as a rule of thumb - when the distance to your monitor equals its width, the "correct" FOV is 60°. 65° when you account for stereoscopic view.

When the monitor is wider than your viewing distance, the FOV increases, if it's smaller, the FOV decreases.

Personally I like a more realistic fov (makes reading gauges a lot easier), but most people seem to prefer a more zoomed out view.


Edited by Hiob
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2 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

What equations did you use in the calculations?

You can use calculator https://www.fov-calculator.com/ or use other methods like measuring some known instrument size that happens to be placed about your eye-monitor distance in RL cockpit or even compare your hand size against the cockpit controls.


Edited by draconus
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4 hours ago, Hiob said:

You need a little bit of trigonometry. Basically you need to calculate the Angle of a triangle between your eyes and the left and right edge of your monitor. The angle is your fov.

I can't give you the exact formula from the top of my head, but as a rule of thumb - when the distance to your monitor equals its width, the "correct" FOV is 60°. 65° when you account for stereoscopic view.

When the monitor is wider than your viewing distance, the FOV increases, if it's smaller, the FOV decreases.

Personally I like a more realistic fov (makes reading gauges a lot easier), but most people seem to prefer a more zoomed out view.

 

 

2 hours ago, draconus said:

You can use calculator https://www.fov-calculator.com/ or use other methods like measuring some known instrument size that happens to be placed about your eye-monitor distance in RL cockpit or even compare your hand size against the cockpit controls.

 

Ah, thanks guys! Yeah, that would be a bit too narrow for my taste and need. My screen is only 21inch and as i seat  about an arm and a palm away from it (usually) that would make the FoV way too narrow to be practical. Somewhere in the order of 35-45 degrees. I mean sure, i can quickly readjust with a radial zoom, but for a default, it's a bit too much, or better said, too little 😄
Still, something to keep in mind if i ever update the screen. Owe you guys some beers! 🍻

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

 

Ah, thanks guys! Yeah, that would be a bit too narrow for my taste and need. My screen is only 21inch and as i seat  about an arm and a palm away from it (usually) that would make the FoV way too narrow to be practical. Somewhere in the order of 35-45 degrees. I mean sure, i can quickly readjust with a radial zoom, but for a default, it's a bit too much, or better said, too little 😄
Still, something to keep in mind if i ever update the screen. Owe you guys some beers! 🍻

From my experience, depending on the aircraft, 75-85 is good value that comes relatively close to how big the hud e.g. and the stuff in front of your face should be.

With good head tracking that is. 

Problem with the sharp calculated values is, that  it doesn’t take into account the loss of peripheral view and that it is only a „windowed“ look into the sky. 

If it were just for the optimal experience, disregarding the costs, a very large screen, relatively close would do the trick best. Think about looking out of your bedroom window onto the street. When you stand 2m away, your FOV is relatively narrow. When you step closer the FOV gets wider. 

 

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9 hours ago, Hiob said:

From my experience, depending on the aircraft, 75-85 is good value that comes relatively close to how big the hud e.g. and the stuff in front of your face should be.

With good head tracking that is. 

Problem with the sharp calculated values is, that  it doesn’t take into account the loss of peripheral view and that it is only a „windowed“ look into the sky. 

If it were just for the optimal experience, disregarding the costs, a very large screen, relatively close would do the trick best. Think about looking out of your bedroom window onto the street. When you stand 2m away, your FOV is relatively narrow. When you step closer the FOV gets wider. 

 

Good advice and i agree on the loss of peripheral vision. I think i'll stick with the 100-110 as default for now, with 85-90 as "zoomed in"  and 115-120 as "zoomed out". The latter especially for ACM/BFM and just out the pit scanning. 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Another point is, especially with Aircraft like the Tomcat, that the huge bow kind of „locks in“ your view, when it covers the edges of your screen so that you can’t see sky anymore next to them. Therefore I give myself a little more slack in the f-14 than , e.g., the F-16.

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11 hours ago, Hiob said:

Another point is, especially with Aircraft like the Tomcat, that the huge bow kind of „locks in“ your view, when it covers the edges of your screen so that you can’t see sky anymore next to them. Therefore I give myself a little more slack in the f-14 than , e.g., the F-16.

True, you want the canopy bow away from the edge. Did some fine tuning this evening and yesterday afternoon. I think i'm pleased with the results. I cycle between 85-95-105 deg FoV, generally for BVR-general use-WVR  accordingly, but as it's easy to zoom in or out, i just seamlessly shift based on reflex and instinct now, like if i need a shot i can go from 105 to 85 in no time. Tested in campaign, in instant action missions and in ACM training missions. Spotting SAM launches is a breeze!  Plus the angling does wonders for coordinating turns, i no longer even need the ball indicator. Some screenshots for the last hop, Syria Devil's edge BVR:

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

 

And the settings as they are now:

image.png

More testing is needed of course, both in  MP and in SP, but so far so good. The results look very promising!  

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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On 8/27/2022 at 4:13 AM, captain_dalan said:

I think i'll stick with the 100-110 as default for now, with 85-90 as "zoomed in"  and 115-120 as "zoomed out". The latter especially for ACM/BFM and just out the pit scanning. 

Whatever works for you. Just don't blame DCS for spotting problems.

Another thing to try if you haven't already is binding zoom axis to the Z axis of your headtracking so you simply move your head closer to get a zoom in. This was my first setup for a year or so.

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

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