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Option for realistic rearm and refuel durations, and no arcady fast repair


Mad_Shell

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In DCS it's possible to rearm and refuel a jet/helicopter in only a few minutes, or even less. Repairing a heavily damaged aircraft in a few minutes only is also possible. Now, I understand this is for gameplay reasons, and no one wants to sit for 1  hour waiting for rearming.

However, hear me out:

- refueling a jet/helicopter only takes between 5 and 10 minutes (sources: https://www.ang.af.mil/Media/Article-Display/Article/862807/f-16s-fast-track-through-flight-line-fueling/#:~:text=Keeping the F-16's engines,to less than 45 minutes. and a discussion with a Tiger helicopter pilot)

- fast rearming (integrated combat turn) can take less than 15 minutes for jets (sources: this comment from ex ground crew "FYI... An actual "ICT" involving F-16 Loading:  6 MK82's , 2 AIM 9's, 510rnds ammo and chaff/flare, as well as refueling  takes Approximately 14 min.  The fastest I witnessed was 12min 34 sec from chock placement to chock removal.  ( Homestead AFB July 1985 to Jan 1988)", https://www.saab.com/products/gripen-c-series stating a 10 minutes combat turnaround for the Gripen)

- having to wait 5 to 15 minutes for a complete rearming/refueling procedure would force players who wish for more realism to deal with real life limitations. No more "2 minutes on the ground and I"m back in the fight!". Now, fuel management matters more, weapon usage has to be more careful. Like in real life... Eventually, it will be especially useful for the upcoming dynamic campaign, for players who want to deal with realistic limitations. Questions like fuel management, how to manage weapon usage, do I have enough time to land and rearm now? are part or combat operations, and an option for realistic rearming/refueling times, and no magic repairs, would require little effort and be a nice addition.

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I can’t help but think that someone wishing to wait can simply…wait.

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System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

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I agree (though personally it would be best to be make them configurable, even if purely as an override).

As far as the repair goes, I don't really see the utility of it given that, by default, I can just spawn in a new aircraft an unlimited amount of times.


Edited by Northstar98
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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

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GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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9 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I can’t help but think that someone wishing to wait can simply…wait.

I mean, to me it's a bit like if a module has a wrong flight model and its top speed is too high, and you say "just don't go full afterburner and you'll get the right speed."

Yes, it's possible. But should we have the realistic option in the game? Imo yes. And that would be nice for mission designers and server owners who would want to do that too.

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i would not want to use such a feature, but i think it's a very reasonable wish for a realistic flight sim to have such realistic features as an option.

also when we have a dynamic campaign, there will be more stuff to do while on the ground (mission planning, strategic decisions maybe), so a longer pause for rearm/refuel might feel less like a burden. some day we will maybe have animated ground crew working on the jet making it a bit less boring to wait a little longer...
also turn-around times could be a tactical factor: maybe certain loadouts take longer, maybe certain aricraft do, maybe certain airfields have higher skilled ground crew etc. ...

so this would be low priority for me at the moment, but imagining a possible future with a super high fidelity dynamic campaign, i think it makes a lot of sense.

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2 hours ago, Mad_Shell said:

I mean, to me it's a bit like if a module has a wrong flight model and its top speed is too high, and you say "just don't go full afterburner and you'll get the right speed."

Yes, it's possible. But should we have the realistic option in the game? Imo yes. And that would be nice for mission designers and server owners who would want to do that too.

 

Fair comment.  Yeah, sure, if it's optional, why not.  Good suggestion.

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System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

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13 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

As far as the repair goes, I don't really see the utility of it given that, by default, I can just spawn in a new aircraft.

I've created a couple of missions that, when you spawn a new aircraft, the slot of the aircraft that you used last is temporarily (a couple of minutes) blocked for "repair and re-arm"), and fully blocked if you crashed that plane. 

Feedback from the players was mixed. "Nice idea, but needlessly disruptive of the game flow; more a gimmick than improvement" was the consensus. We now usually play with blocking a slot after a crash (so you have to return the plane in mostly one piece, but as long as it's returned to your base, you can re-use it), but no impediments for repair. Nobody wants to wait 15 minutes for your next sortie, even the 3 minutes is too much for most, they re-slot rather than wait for re-arm.  


Edited by cfrag
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On 8/17/2022 at 1:47 PM, cfrag said:

I've created a couple of missions that, when you spawn a new aircraft, the slot of the aircraft that you used last is temporarily (a couple of minutes) blocked for "repair and re-arm"), and fully blocked if you crashed that plane. 

Feedback from the players was mixed. "Nice idea, but needlessly disruptive of the game flow; more a gimmick than improvement" was the consensus.

I mean, blocking slots for rearming probably isn't the best solution and don't get me wrong, quick turnarounds/ICTs and hot rearming/refuelling should be a thing.

Personally, my preferred solution would have it be configurable, allowing mission editors to increase or decrease the time. My preferred solution would be something like a rate expressed as a percentage; 100% would be realistic and then reducing the percentage would increase the time and increasing the percentage would decrease the time.

On 8/17/2022 at 1:47 PM, cfrag said:

We now usually play with blocking a slot after a crash (so you have to return the plane in mostly one piece, but as long as it's returned to your base, you can re-use it), but no impediments for repair. Nobody wants to wait 15 minutes for your next sortie, even the 3 minutes is too much for most, they re-slot rather than wait for re-arm. 

Personally, I would set it up similar to C:MO. Here, you have say an airbase, with a certain number of aircraft assigned to it. What state these aircraft are in (i.e available, maintenance, reserve (i.e unloaded)) and the time to ready is configurable by the user.

Aircraft that are available and ready can be occupied by players, aircraft that are under maintenance, lost or already occupied are unavailable.

This way it's more in line with real world air operations and there's more of a practical consequence for expending weapons, fuel and aircraft. Mission editors would just need to make sure there's enough slots available (where players can just slot in to a new aircraft).

Obviously the default option should stay, which grants airbases an unlimited amount of aircraft, fuel and weapons.


Edited by Northstar98
removed duplicate sentence, spelling
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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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  • 3 months later...

I Have set up a working ICT.  Take as long as it takes  DCS to rearm & refuel.  As soon as the AC crosses into the trigger area for that ICT a Fuel truck, a MMS line truck and Crew Chief are dispatched to that spot.  They stay for 2 min the move away. 

The reason for a ICT area is for immersion. Also to encourage the"Team effort" immersion (Ground Crew & Air Crew) as seen on the Super Carrier.   instead of spinning around at the end of runway and rearming on the shoulder with half a dozen others.  There is a tone of eye candy on the the airports, immerse your self in this "Simulator"  

In our Mission we give extra scoring points when using the ICT area.   As well as points for bringing home a crippled AC, surviving a successful Ejection. but losing a life and/or AC has a SEVER reduction in your score. Every target ground and air is scored. Your score is posted to our web page.  You literally can bet on your "Bombs" score with your buddies. 

 

PET PEEVE:  Fly out to target/dogfight, win or hit the target then eject and grab a new AC and do it over.  Pilots that do that lose my respect.

Screen_221123_214758.jpg


Edited by Wildhare
swaped word for clearity
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306th TFS Home of the "WILDHARE's" :pilotfly::gun_sniper: A10,F-14, F-15, F16, F18, AV88, UH1,KA 50, Oculus Rift ,Hotas Warthog, Stable & Beta, VRK :: AMD Ryzen 7 2700 Eight Core 3.2 ghz, RAM- 32 GB, GeForce GTX 1070

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Different Base same mission.  Same result

Screen_221123_223734.jpg

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306th TFS Home of the "WILDHARE's" :pilotfly::gun_sniper: A10,F-14, F-15, F16, F18, AV88, UH1,KA 50, Oculus Rift ,Hotas Warthog, Stable & Beta, VRK :: AMD Ryzen 7 2700 Eight Core 3.2 ghz, RAM- 32 GB, GeForce GTX 1070

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nullImmersion.  

 

These Graphics are mods we have downloaded from "DCS Downloads"  We also use Moose to script our missions. 

Screen_221123_223124.jpg

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306th TFS Home of the "WILDHARE's" :pilotfly::gun_sniper: A10,F-14, F-15, F16, F18, AV88, UH1,KA 50, Oculus Rift ,Hotas Warthog, Stable & Beta, VRK :: AMD Ryzen 7 2700 Eight Core 3.2 ghz, RAM- 32 GB, GeForce GTX 1070

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