The Aim 54 is confounding me

[Digitalvole]

First off, I’ve totally fallen for the Tomcat. I’m a mud mover at heart but there is no other plane I’ve flown in DCS that feels as great as the Tomcat. But I’m stuck! I’d greatly appreciate some advice. (Again)

As such I’m determined to learn how to use this plane properly. I’m getting there with case 1 and aar (can do both reasonably well in the Hornet) but the mighty Aim 54 has has had me scratching my head. I’ve been searching the internets for help but I’m still bamboozled. 

The scenario I’m doing (it’s the first mission of a Liberation campaign) has me in a two flight of Tomcats facing 4-6 SU-33s/MiG 29s. At this point (after many many retries) I must have fired at least 30 aim 54s (the C variant  and in TWS) and had only one hit! I’m firing from 35k-45k feet, Mach 1 and a little bit, and from various distances ranging from 60 miles to 40 miles, even 20 miles once.
I’ll list the things that have me most confused/could use help understanding.

I’m aware that this missiles was designed to shoot down bombers at long range and in order to hit a fighter size target, the advice I’ve been given here and seen online was that 40miles is about the limit. My problem is in order to support the missile till active at these ranges I’m well within range of there missiles before it goes active. I’ve tried cranking but I suspect this may lead to my next problem..

More often than not they Don’t go active at all, the number counts down then goes into minus numbers. No flashing number (means it’s active right?).

Also the amount of time on the counter seems high, or is it just me? I shot at a target 43 miles away and the countdown timer was something like 90. I cranked (gently) never seemed to lose the lock but by the time the number has reached negative numbers the enemy 2 ship was about 10 miles away. How do you support these missiles without ending up in a dogfight?

Another thing I don’t understand is why they like to head to the moon no matter how far away the target is. I feel like this leads to the length of time I have to support the missile. Leading, in turn, to having to support the bloody thing till you’ve merged with the enemy. (Saw a thread on this just now, but I didn’t want to hijack it with all my other queries and conundrums ).

Do they work better if you have a moustache? I don’t want one and neither does my wife (thank god!) but if it’ll help..  

Edit. this needs a tldr: 
1) best tactics against (multiple) fighters? 

2) How best to support the missile?

3)can I stop it lofting like a loony?

4) My missiles don’t seem to go active.

I really need some help, I know it’s me doing things wrong, I’m at a total loss at this point. Thanks in advance.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Digitalvole

[Callsign JoNay]

The most important piece of information you need when setting up for a Phoenix shot is your target's altitude, which I don't see mentioned anywhere in your post. It's at least twice as important as your own altitude. It affects the optimal shooting ranges much more than your own altitude or speed.

It sounds like you might be losing track before the missiles are able to pitbull though. Is there a tiny little x in the middle of the track file? If so that means the AWG lost contact and is extrapolating where they might be based on their last known trajectory, but I don't think I've ever seen a successful hit on an extrapolated track file in my experience. I don't think it works in DCS. If I see the little x, I consider it a lost missile.

 

Edit/Add: I think the C-model Phoenix is the worst in the game right now, so if you have the ability to do so, switch to the A-60.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Callsign JoNay

[Digitalvole]

Thanks @Callsign JoNay  for taking the time to help me

They are at between 25k & 30k feet (little 3).

Now you mention it, I am seeing a little x (in vr so I have to zoom in to see it). What can cause this? I’d assume them going defensive but if the missile hasn’t gone active, how do they know it’s coming? What advice could you give me on how to act given a targets altitude? (Edit, I assume it’s: lower target means get closer? Are there some good rules of thumb for altitude/launch distance?) 

I will switch to the mk 60 like you suggest.

Thanks again

Edited August 17, 2022 by Digitalvole

[Callsign JoNay]

So the altitude thing...

AIM-120s are like darts at the local pub. If you drop one they accelerate down very quickly with gravity accelerating them. The drag of the atmosphere doesn't do much to slow them. AIM-54s are more like badminton shuttlecocks. When they come down into thicker air, (and I mean anything in the 25,000 feet zone and below), they start experiencing massive drag and slow down a lot. So if your targets are at medium altitude, or lower down near the deck, it doesn't matter if you're at angels-45 doing Mach 1.6, they will be somewhat protected by the thicker air, and you will have to play the game on their terms to some extent.

AIM-120 PK% table:

Best: High to low.

Good: High to high.

Medium: Low to low.

Bad: Low to high.

 

AIM-54 PK% table:

Best: High to high.

Good: Low to high.

Medium: High to low.

Bad: Low to low.

 

If you see a target at 35000 or higher, an AIM-54A 60 can be launched from almost any range allotted by TWS, (as long as the targets are hot of course). You can fire from 70+ miles and your missiles will have about Mach-3ish at pitbull and probably still carry Mach 2 at impact. This is the case even if you are at a medium altitude. If you see anything up high, it's blood in the water. At around 25000 feet and below I start to apply the 1.5 rule. I translate their altitude into a range and add about 50%. So if they're at angels 20, I shoot at around 30, if they're at 10 or below I shoot at about 15, etc. These are huge generalizations, but it's a decent guideline to follow. (I haven't used AIM-54Cs in probably over a year, so I can't speak much on those missiles).

 

If you're getting the little x in the middle of the contact, (not to be confused with the ever so slightly larger x that represents the center of the scan volume and is often right on top of a track file anyway, insert "hey dog, I heard you like confusing symbology, so we added some confusing symbology to make your symbology confusing" meme, then the target probably entered the extremely huge main lobe clutter notch filter. It is a massive 266 knot zone +/- 133 from your own ground speed. Basically your targets can notch the AWG-9 without even trying. Sometimes routine maneuvering puts them in the notch. If you're over water it's safe to set the MLC to out. Unfortunately Jester can't be ordered to do that for some stupid reason, so you'll have to jump into the back seat yourself. If you are over land, or if it's near-ish in the distance, you'll want to dive immediately after shooting instead of using the MLC out function. If your targets are up at 25-30, dive down to 15 or so. If you keep them above 3-degrees the notch filters won't apply, and the AWG will hold good tracks even if they start turning.

[Digitalvole]

@Callsign JoNay Brilliant, thank you! This is exactly what I’m after. It’s very good of you. This kind of info is gold dust to me, I take my hat off to you sir. 
 

52 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said:

AIM-120s are like darts at the local pub.

Luckily I’m in a pub right now As a result I will probably have to re read your excellent post tomorrow.

Couple of questions, what is MLC? (Edit is it Missile Launch Cue?) What would you advise for supporting the missile till active? I keep finding myself far to close for comfort at the moment even with cranking. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Digitalvole

[Prez]

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

I’m aware that this missiles was designed to shoot down bombers at long range and in order to hit a fighter size target, the advice I’ve been given here and seen online was that 40miles is about the limit. My problem is in order to support the missile till active at these ranges I’m well within range of there missiles before it goes active. I’ve tried cranking but I suspect this may lead to my next problem..

You need to also add a descent element to your crank, simply putting the target off the nose horizontally is not enough, you need to drop altitude especially if you're shooting from the altitudes you say you are. This should help you stay further out of range of an opponents possible shot range.

 

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

Also the amount of time on the counter seems high, or is it just me? I shot at a target 43 miles away and the countdown timer was something like 90. I cranked (gently) never seemed to lose the lock but by the time the number has reached negative numbers the enemy 2 ship was about 10 miles away. How do you support these missiles without ending up in a dogfight?

This is normal. A rule of thumb is that it takes a missile 2 seconds to close 1NM with a hot aspect target. So you can expect a 40NM to take 80 seconds to intercept the target as a bare minimum. A recent former Tomcat pilot said that he had a ROT of half range+5 miles was active range for the AIM-54, so you can expect a 40NM shot go active at 20+5=25NM if you crank appropriately. 

Also, there is a persistent issue where if you are launching from TWS Manual, when the TWS auto kicks in from launch it borks the track and I still don't know why other than just a blatant problem with the coding of the AWG-9. So its best to try and force TWS Auto as early as possible to keep that problem from happening.

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

Another thing I don’t understand is why they like to head to the moon no matter how far away the target is. I feel like this leads to the length of time I have to support the missile. Leading, in turn, to having to support the bloody thing till you’ve merged with the enemy. (Saw a thread on this just now, but I didn’t want to hijack it with all my other queries and conundrums ).

The AIM-54 will not (or rather should not) loft if fired within 21NM of the target. But to speak specifically to the loft profile, the missile is massive obviously so it needs to get into the thinnest air possible as fast as possible. Sure the AIM-54s rocket burns for a long time, but its comparatively weak when placed against contemporary medium range missiles. The 54 gets all it's speed from being in a low-drag environment with a long burn motor, not from having a powerful one. If you shoot within parameters of a normal launch (i.e. high altitude) then it shouldn't have much of an issue with its loft profile.

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

1) best tactics against (multiple) fighters? 

2) How best to support the missile?

3)can I stop it lofting like a loony?

4) My missiles don’t seem to go active.

1. If you're soloing in a single player mission that can be hard with the Tomcat, so the only real advice I can give you is TWS launching on at least 2 fighters in the first pass and hope that the wingmen can sort the others. I don't fly single player so it's not my knowledge set.

2. Try your best to achieve a 50 degree crank by combining a nose down atitude with a horizontal offset. My personal rule of thumb is that you should finish your crank defense being ~10kft below where you shot your missile give or take depending on altitude. For example, if I shoot from 30-40kft. I like to end my crank at around 20kft.

3. No lol, this loft is as designed and you can even see this behavior in real launch tests

4. As far as I see it, it's a game issue, but it could also come from the lack of a human RIO in your case since Jester can't really clean the TID for stable tracks. But this one is a pretty broad issue.

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

I’m aware that this missiles was designed to shoot down bombers at long range and in order to hit a fighter size target, the advice I’ve been given here and seen online was that 40miles is about the limit. My problem is in order to support the missile till active at these ranges I’m well within range of there missiles before it goes active. I’ve tried cranking but I suspect this may lead to my next problem..

The Phoenix works just fine against fighters.  The limit depends very heavily on what your target is and that it is doing, and what you are trying to accomplish.  People covered a bunch of stuff, specially altitude.  There's usually little reason to shoot at a fighter beyond 20nm, and at that distance you ensure the missile will reach its target.

 

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

More often than not they Don’t go active at all, the number counts down then goes into minus numbers. No flashing number (means it’s active right?).

More like it means 'it should have gone active at this point'   I forget how the entire process is mechanized in DCS - even if the track is lost the missile should go active as long as you don't delete the track and the radar is looking in that direction (the missile data-link commands the missile to go active - this should be different for the C, which should be doing it's own thing by itself).

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

Also the amount of time on the counter seems high, or is it just me? I shot at a target 43 miles away and the countdown timer was something like 90. I cranked (gently) never seemed to lose the lock but by the time the number has reached negative numbers the enemy 2 ship was about 10 miles away. How do you support these missiles without ending up in a dogfight?

Rule of thumb 2sec/nm head on, 3sec/nm on the beam, 4sec/nm tail-chase.   Still seem high?

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

Another thing I don’t understand is why they like to head to the moon no matter how far away the target is. I feel like this leads to the length of time I have to support the missile. Leading, in turn, to having to support the bloody thing till you’ve merged with the enemy. (Saw a thread on this just now, but I didn’t want to hijack it with all my other queries and conundrums ).

The missile lofts in order to increase its range.

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

Do they work better if you have a moustache? I don’t want one and neither does my wife (thank god!) but if it’ll help..  

... no

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

Edit. this needs a tldr: 
1) best tactics against (multiple) fighters? 

Bring friends.  There exists no other 'best tactic' against multiple fighters, only 'best you can do at this time' and those are all 'it depends'.  You have to analyze the situation and figure out what you're going to do, including turning tail and running.

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

2) How best to support the missile?

Maintain the target in the radar cone until the missile is active.

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

3)can I stop it lofting like a loony?

No, you cannot, unless you launch it in specific modes used for close combat.

1 hour ago, Digitalvole said:

4) My missiles don’t seem to go active.

They won't seem to go active if the track is lost (they may be going active and not detecting anything), or if you launch in STT (The C should be an exception here but again, I don't know how it behaves in DCS).

[Prez]

6 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

Couple of questions, what is MLC? (Edit is it Missile Launch Cue?) What would you advise for supporting the missile till active? I keep finding myself far to close for comfort at the moment even with cranking. 

 

"MLC" - Main lobe clutter. It's the specific filter used to clear out ground returns on a pulse-doppler radar. In the F-14, the RIO can manually shut this off to continue to track beaming/notching targets that fall into to this clutter gate. It automatically disables if the radar has at least a 3 degree look-up angle, so you can use that to your advantage with the crank+dive solution I mentioned earlier to get below the target. Lastly, don't nervous about getting launched at. It's a typical fear to have especially if you are newer to air combat, you hear a warning on the RWR and think it's doomsday, but that's why you should really look into the capability of the opponents weapons instead of relying solely on the information of your own capabilities. Threat awareness as it were.

[Digitalvole]

This sub forum is the best, thank you guys! Another reason why the F14 is the best module in DCS. 

I’ll take all this in latter, have had a couple of pints so info retention rate is reduced. 

Thanks @Prez @GGTharos @Callsign JoNay @DD_Fenririts help like this that makes this a community rather than just a bunch of ppl who play the same video game. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Digitalvole

[DD_Fenrir]

1. MLC = Main Lobe Clutter

Essentially it's a filter for your radars Main Lobe:

 

The Main Lobe is what you use for detecting targets - all the others are a nuisance and we want to ignore any return from those. 

If the WCS calculates that due to antenna elevation any part of the Main Lobe might be catching a return from the ground it enables, automatically, this filter. Why?

To do look down/shoot-down you have to use doppler processing, i.e. assessing the closure rate of a return.

This is where the WCS looks at your calculated ground speed and throws out any returns whose closure rate to your aircraft it thinks correspond to that number, ergo ignoring any return from the ground. Simple, right?

In theory, yes, in reality... there's a few gotchas.

This is not, particularly in the AWG-9 (which whilst amazing technology of it's time, is essentially 1960's tech), a very precise technology. It cannot estimate your GS down to the nearest 1 Knot accuracy. Or even 10 knots. Or even 50. It's more like +/- 100 knots.

So, if your target is flying either very slowly or turns perpendicular to you and your radar's MLC is active he's gonna disappear. When that happens, you get the dreaded 'x' appear over the contact, the track file is now bupkiss and you watch the target you just committed a missile to march off the TID at some incredulous angle at unfeasible speed.

Bugger.

2. There is another issue in the AWG-9s ability to discriminate between multiple fighter sized targets at range that can cause lost track files. If you commit to a target aircraft group that is flying in close formation it can be difficult for the AWG-9 to determine that there's more than one contact, and as such it might tell you there's only one.

Sometimes, when break-out occurs it can confuse the AWG-9 and where it had one contact it now has two, does not know which to maintain as the 1st Track and which to start building a 2nd Track for and seems to throw a wobbly; it dumps the nice track file you had and starts from scratch. Which is great, except when you've already put a Phoenix in the air.

Sometimes it is able to break-out the other aircraft before your Missile Engagement Zone (MEZ) and at others not. It depends on the RCS of the target and how close they are flying form.

 

 

[Callsign JoNay]

Another good tip I can give you, is to tell Jester to set target size to large if you're playing single player or PVE. AFAIK the new and improved DCS AI does not begin it's missile defense when it detects the pitbull on their RWR, they begin their defensive maneuvering at a set range. I think it's 10 miles. So there is no downside to using a large target size. It makes your missiles go pitbull sooner, which is less time that you have to support them. If you fly PVP it's a different story...

[Spurts]

3 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

 

Do they work better if you have a moustache?

 

Yeah, the moustache is mandatory, sorry.  I'm surprised Tomcat boat work and BFM didn't force one out of your face.  In all seriousness, @Callsign JoNay has been spot on in his advice.

[Noctrach]

3 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Another good tip I can give you, is to tell Jester to set target size to large if you're playing single player or PVE. AFAIK the new and improved DCS AI does not begin it's missile defense when it detects the pitbull on their RWR, they begin their defensive maneuvering at a set range. I think it's 10 miles. So there is no downside to using a large target size. It makes your missiles go pitbull sooner, which is less time that you have to support them. If you fly PVP it's a different story...

Correct, AI is still coded to always begin their defense at a hard threshold. This is 10 nmi for Ace (hardcoded "detection" boundary for all objects) and slightly lower for lower difficulties. As you correctly assert, this means that target size switch does not affect AI engagements, and STT is equally potent to TWS as the AI does not respond to the STT launch, only the missile breaching their 10 nmi perimeter.

To OP:

When it comes to multi-target engagements, personally I have found TWS very unreliable when tracking 2 or more bandits. Generally advise against firing more than a single phoenix at a time if the scenario allows it. The ever-valid advice for multi-fighter engagements: Get a wingman.

As per 4. there is a of touch weirdness going on with the AWG-9 where some shots will not go active even if the track holds true, but I've not been able to reproduce it consistently so might be a multiplayer thing.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Noctrach

[Spurts]

@Noctrach"the AI does not respond to the STT launch, only the missile breaching their 10 nmi perimeter."

not so sure about that, I recently had two bomber AIs defend immediately on me STTing some Sparrows at 50nm.

[Noctrach]

6 hours ago, Spurts said:

@Noctrach"the AI does not respond to the STT launch, only the missile breaching their 10 nmi perimeter."

not so sure about that, I recently had two bomber AIs defend immediately on me STTing some Sparrows at 50nm.

Could you tell me how you set this up? I've been unable to recreate the AI defending any shots outside of 10 miles.

I could imagine AI behaviour being different for missiles that are classified as FOX 1 in the game files, but I've not been able to reproduce this even with Sparrows,

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Noctrach

[Spurts]

I was in the back seat, PD-STT, PD Sparrow mode.  I was on the targets 10 o'clock or so doing M2 at 50,000ft while they were doing 1.4M at 40,000ft IIRC, so the missiles were a long shot anyway.  Oddly the AI default to "break left and dive" no matter what.  Apparently the best place to fire on the AI is from 8 o'clock low?  lol.  But I fired at one bomber at ~52nm and they both broke to evade.  This was my same flight where firing a follow up Sparrow trashed my first Sparrow.

[cheezit]

How does the AI's RWR differentiate between being STT'd with no launch versus being STT'd with a launch?

[Spurts]

same as anyone else's?  STT gives a tone change, missile guidance adds another channel/pulse type that is recognized.

[Digitalvole]

So I just thought I’d give a little progress update on my exploits with the aim 54

Having tried to follow the advice in this thread (thanks guys!) I’m definitely seeing an improvement. I still suck, but a little bit less now. I’m enjoying having to think a bit harder about when/where to launch. 

But, there’s always a but, in my last Liberation mission I noticed something that made me wonder if I’m trying to fit a square peg through a round hole. 6x SU 33 vs 6x F14B (aim 54 mk60) all computer controlled. Both groups of planes were travelling towards each other at 30k feet. The Tomcats launched first (by some margin) then the 33s. Long story short, every Tomcat was shot down for about 60% of the redfor planes going down. The Tomcats were set to Veteran and the 33s to Good.

My conclusion was that maybe the F14 isn’t the best plane to be flying in a single player Liberation campaign. I’m sure this thing is an absolute killer when flown by a human crew, even just human pilots and jester, in a squadron. But when completely reliant on ai for all things it seems almost impossible. Seems like good comms between flights is a must (not going to happen in sp) and I’m just not sure the ai is up to the task at all. In order to support there missiles (I’m assuming) they flew straight at the 33s and all died. Meanwhile the 33s managed to dodge most of the incoming 54s. 

What do you guys think? Am I barking up the wrong tree trying what I’m trying? This module blows my mind on almost every level (I love the music at the menu screen even) but I can’t shake the feeling it’s not really suitable for what I’m trying to do, ie single player Liberation campaign.

[Digitalvole]

Another quick update before I start a new thread in search of more help.

I was wrong! My pk has gone from something like 1% to a solid 50%. I’ve followed all the advice given to me and am seeing a real improvement. I’ve still a way to go but I now feel I’m on the right track.

Thank you guys for taking the time to offer advice and help, it’s really made a difference for me.

Ps. I’m discovering that the AI loses the I in their initials when playing Liberation campaigns. Honestly, they are properly daft. Hence all those poor Tomcats getting shot down I mentioned in my last post.

[Callsign JoNay]

On 8/17/2022 at 10:09 AM, Callsign JoNay said:

At around 25000 feet and below I start to apply the 1.5 rule. I translate their altitude into a range and add about 50%. So if they're at angels 20, I shoot at around 30, if they're at 10 or below I shoot at about 15, etc. These are huge generalizations, but it's a decent guideline to follow.

With the new September 2nd patch we can probably forget my old 1.5 rule. It's probably closer to 1:1 now, judging by the data we're seeing. If the bandit is at 30k, shoot at 30NM, 20 for 20, 10 for 10, etc. Testing needed to confirm, of course.

[Digitalvole]

Haha, just when you think you’ve got to grips with something, it all changes! Ive two small children so I’m quite used to this phenomenon. 

So, is it time to ditch the 54A mk60  in favour of the 54C mk47? Or mk60? Are there other things I need to be aware of now? Sorry, I’m all confused again.

[Prez]

7 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

Haha, just when you think you’ve got to grips with something, it all changes! Ive two small children so I’m quite used to this phenomenon. 

So, is it time to ditch the 54A mk60  in favour of the 54C mk47? Or mk60? Are there other things I need to be aware of now? Sorry, I’m all confused again.

If I may self-plug, I made a video about it  

 

[DSplayer]

1 hour ago, Prez said:

If I may self-plug, I made a video about it  

 

Some clarifying points I have here:

The empty mass for both the AIM-54A-Mk47 and AIM-54A-Mk60 has actually increased with the latest patch (Mk47A previously had an empty weight of 273.36 kg and the Mk60A had an empty weight of 263.71 kg while both now have the same empty mass of 281 kg). The empty mass for the AIM-54C-Mk47 however has decreased with the latest patch (previously had 302.304 kg to now 291 kg).

 

For the new terminal guidance properties of the AIM-54C, due to DCS limitations it goes active no matter what at 10 nm (even if you're in PD-STT or you changed your target size setting accordingly). This was mentioned in the latest AIM-54 thread but is, of course, buried.

 

The motor propellant mass change for the Mk60, in my opinion, is pretty important since prior to this current patch it had a propellant mass of 207.99 kg while now it has a propellant mass of 163 kg (which is the same for the Mk47 motor). The previous mass flow rate of the Mk60 rocket was 6.933 kg/s while now it is 7.912 kg/s (this is coupled with the decreased burn time of the missile). This means that the missile gets rid of its weight faster and makes it generally lighter than the Mk47 variant (which has a mass flow rate of 6.037 kg/s) at a faster pace. This is the reason why when you compare data between the old and new Mk60As, you'll see the new Mk60A go faster for a couple seconds then drop off. This also means the Isp of course drops from ~270.15 to ~236.70.

 

Overall good video on summarizing this patch for the general consumer.

Edited September 4, 2022 by DSplayer

[Digitalvole]

2 hours ago, Prez said:

If I may self-plug, I made a video about it  

 

Plug away! it was the first vid I watched after downloading the update earlier today. Your Tomcat series is great, thank you! My only complaint is there isn’t more of them, hint hint

I’m back to working out how to hit things again without getting too close and getting shot down myself. It’s not going well hehe.