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What makes the Apache the most difficult helicopter module to fly?


Schmidtfire
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10 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

I've never used it, nor do I intend to. There are a lot more factors in play under the hood that needs to be worked on and tweaked any time the flight model is adjusted, so in my personal opinion it is not worth my time to provide feedback on a set of adjustments that don't adequately capture the entire gambit of physical factors in play or would be inserted into the game. I'm not making any judgements on it, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be an efficient use of my time or an effective feedback mechanism for the devs.

The aggressiveness of any given SCAS channel under various conditions of attitude, airspeed, power applied, and hold sub-mode of course will be an ongoing thing as needed.

Yeah I guess that's fair, I was thinking more as a feedback thing to the community so we can get an idea of how certain bits of it should feel.

I will say that I very much hope there is an order of magnitude more variables dictating the SCAS that we users just cant see. Because the 3 or 4 per axis we see in FM config.lua aren't really enough for modelling a control system like this.

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On 9/20/2022 at 6:45 PM, M1Combat said:

I mean it has a few quirks, but...  It seems pretty easy to fly to me.  I have a ton of time in the Shark and a bit in the Hind.  I feel it just needs a couple small tweaks maybe but it's not "bad" or even difficult IMO...

 

 

I find the Apache the hardest to fly in all respects. It's a gorgeous module and the effects are first class, but often as not I fly for a bit and then it goes back in the hangar and then I'm off in the BlackShark. The BS2 is muh baby. We get along just fine.

 

I'll try the Apache again today and try to stick with for at least a few test flights. Maybe I can get past the bumps that always stop me from flying it.


Edited by Beirut

Some of the planes, but all of the maps!

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2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

So I am a little baffled at the moment, since there is a good mix of users saying it's an improvement and others saying it's a regression. I would assume that some users are referring to different aspects of the flight model when making generalized statements as such, depending on what aspect they find most troublesome.

Yes, there are many elements to the Flight Model such that generalizing the entire thing as better or worse is not helpful. Sorry.

The subtle changes to SAS pedal authority, or collective authority are changes that are adaptable.  It takes a little time to adapt to the new "normal", but you get used to it.  The sudden change in the "neutral" position of the pedal took me by surprise in my first take off, but now that I know it is different, I have adapted.

I do feel that the tail rotor seems to misbehave more often for me when trying to get into a stable manual hover.  Once I'm settled, I feel like it rotates one way or the other, and when I apply some pedal to correct it, the response is delayed and then it starts drifting the other direction.  Maybe I will get used to that as well in time.

My biggest complaints after this patch are the two bugs that were introduced that are quite frustrating to me. 1) the tail failing to respond to input and then suddenly over-correcting like the snap over-steer in an a Porsche 911, and 2) the severe vertical oscillations introduced when enabling ALT Hold.

My flying style was to get into a battle position by establishing a hover peeking over the tree-tops while my CPG goes to work.  The helo used to be rock solid with ATT and ALT Hold modes enabled.  If I needed to change direction or side-slip a bit to get a better position, I would disable ATT Hold, maneuver, then re-enable.  Now I am spending an extra 30 seconds getting it back under control so I can reapply ATT Hold again.  And since ALT Hold is unusable (at low altitude) at the moment, I'm constantly monitoring the collective as it has a tendency to all of a sudden decide to SAS itself into a steady descent that you may not be able to recover from.

I think what makes these two bugs frustrating to me is because either the changes weren't fully tested by the internal team before releasing the patch, or there was no communication as to what to expect with the patch.  If the team knew that ALT Hold is not working correctly in this release, maybe say something in the patch notes about how ALT Hold is currently broken because we are currently working on XYZ.  But when it is not mentioned, it appears to everyone else as just a QC issue that could have easily been caught.

Because of these two current bugs, if given a choice of flying the previous version vs. the version we have today, I would choose the previous version.  I do appreciate the other bug fixes that were included in this release, and I have said so in other threads, but when it comes to actually flying (and hovering) the thing, I would consider this a regression for me.

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im mostly hoping that all the wobblyness and especaly the stickyness(wich i think intreduces alot of the wobble) gets adressed, while i think this update was a inprovement, its not adressing the wobble that you get at high speed, instead the heli is just slower now, just as fast as a huey now...  but that aside what makes the update even less playable that earlyer versions are the sporadic FM/SCAS behaviors that can lead to you hitting the ground quite fast .....

 

simply sayd, even if the tail VSR happens only every now and then, i dont wanna fly around doing an op involving any major flight time if i just hit the ground since the thing cant hold its ALt on its own or because the Tail decided to not respond anymore when beeing low to the ground...  in the end, it comes down to reliability.

and the apache atm is for the most part just way harder to predict than any other module atm

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13 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

A few of my keybinds needed to be re-binded after the update, so maybe some user curves/settings also

Oh good. Is there a list of keybinds deleted or changed by the patch

Update: I now found this too https://forum.dcs.world/topic/309331-has-something-changed-with-keybinds/  And restoring keybinds from a previously backed up profile (XXXX.diff.lua file) does not work. Corrections need to be made manually in options : controls section of the game gui

 


Edited by Dallas88B
Added reference to informative post

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7 hours ago, admiki said:

I think only symbology got deleted

Reportedly plus "Pilot and Copilot/Gunner seat switch commands. They weren't removed, but they flagged a conflict for some reason" https://forum.dcs.world/topic/309331-has-something-changed-with-keybinds/ 

MSI Z690 EDGE | i5 12600K | RTX 3070 TUF OC 8GB | Kingston Fury Renegade 32GB 3600MHz CL16 | Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 |SilverStone 1000W Strider 80+ Platinum PSU | LG 34GN850 UWQHD 160Hz G-Sync HDR IPS 34in Monitor | Antlion Audio ModMic Uni-Directional Microphone with Beyerdynamic DT 770 PRO Closed Back Studio Headphones | Behringer Xenyx 302USB Mixer | Virpil T-50CM3 Throttle | DELANCLiP head tracking | Gunfighter Mk.III MCE Ultimate | Crosswind Pedals | W10

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Sorry for wandering a bit off topic perhaps, but someone should change this thread's title.

It keeps popping up on top (me posting this ain't helping with that), but the title is misleading, especially to newcomers.

I know the OP means well (he probably just wanted to use a catchy title), but the Apache certainly is not the most difficult helo within DCS to fly. After practice, all helo's are quite easy to fly, but I'm pretty sure everyone will agree that the Hind (a lot more prone to VRS) is more challenging to learn than the Apache (even when you disregard sling loading).

No offence meant.

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50 minutes ago, Viking355th said:

Not me.  I fly both, bought 'em around the same time, and find the Hind much easier to fly.

Really? At high speed sure, but in transition from high to low speed/hover?

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i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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4 hours ago, sirrah said:

I'm pretty sure everyone will agree that the Hind (a lot more prone to VRS) is more challenging to learn than the Apache (even when you disregard sling loading).

 

Speaking strictly for myself, I feel like I can get the hind to do what I want it to do, whereas I feel like I'm constantly fighting with the Apache to even get it to go in a straight line.  I can complete a mission in either one, but if you were to watch my Apache replays, you would probably assume I'm flying drunk.

I think the Apache is the only module where I don't really understand what the stability/AP systems are trying to accomplish.  Sometimes while fighting with it I'll go hands off and just let the aircraft show me what it wants to do, and it'll always do something I can't explain.

edit - to be clear, I'm criticizing my ability to understand the Apache, not the module itself.


Edited by Scofflaw

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Personally, I think Apache is pretty easy to control (now). Is a helicopter, never forget that. Mastering a helicopter takes SIGNIFICANTLY longer than a jet. The entire Apache training takes years in the US Army. That's why it doesn't surprise me that I don't buy a module, turn it on and fly. At least not with the Apache.

About the SAS: If you switch that off completely, you notice that it clearly helps to fly the helicopter. Now, of course, the legitimate question is, isn't the flight model a bit unstable without SAS? Or rather, is the real Apache absolutely uncontrollable without the SAS as well?

In any case, I'm excited to see what else ED will do on FM in the coming weeks and months. As it is now, no one will be happy with it. ATT hold mode does not work properly. ALT hold mode only works in hover. At speeds over 90 knots the Bird is still grossly unstable.

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My alt hold works great at first then gets into a fatal oscillation if not disengaged at hover , att hold works ok but my nose keeps wandering left and right . been flying this since day 1 and still there are times when i get into a great hover  then it's like a gust of wind hits me and i'm at a large bank angle the torque goes nuts and i'm all over the place. I'm just having George fly it now and i'm shooting from cpg 

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Now that seat swapping is available in MP its better because I let George do the hovering and transition in and out of a hover, and I like doing CPG stuff, however if you suddenly come under attack whilst in CPG George is useless at getting out of the area/avoiding the incoming fire so you have to jump back into the Pilot seat, but most of the time this results in a crash if your hovering low as for some reason the engine torque seems very low, like 30-50%, and it just drops as not enough time to recover back up to get it moving from the hover.

Also when George does a sharpish turn he also drops from the sky as he has the torque over 100 and keeps it there...

These are specific situations though, general flying, slow in and out of hovering and easy turning he is fine, its just when you need to be more eager due to the situation he falls apart.

So in summary I don't enjoy being a Pilot as its still a pain to fly, plus the SAS constantly going off is annoying, and being CPG is good provided your far enough away from the enemy and your gentle with George.


Edited by gav88888
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3 hours ago, gav88888 said:

Now that seat swapping is available in MP its better because I let George do the hovering and transition in and out of a hover, and I like doing CPG stuff, however if you suddenly come under attack whilst in CPG George is useless at getting out of the area/avoiding the incoming fire so you have to jump back into the Pilot seat, but most of the time this results in a crash if your hovering low as for some reason the engine torque seems very low, like 30-50%, and it just drops as not enough time to recover back up to get it moving from the hover.

Also when George does a sharpish turn he also drops from the sky as he has the torque over 100 and keeps it there...

These are specific situations though, general flying, slow in and out of hovering and easy turning he is fine, its just when you need to be more eager due to the situation he falls apart.

So in summary I don't enjoy being a Pilot as its still a pain to fly, plus the SAS constantly going off is annoying, and being CPG is good provided your far enough away from the enemy and your gentle with George.

 

Don't hover. It's as simple as that. It requires more power, so you either drop fuel or weapons or both. And it makes you static target.

@bradmickalready said it, just because you can hover does not mean you must to.

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