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Which Is More Complex?


BuzzU

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I have a friend who's new to DCS. The two planes he likes are the Hornet and Tank Killer. He's asking me which one he should buy. I told him both are complex and not the best choice for a first plane. He doesn't care. 

Give me your thoughts please.

Buzz

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I only recently got into DCS, and I started with F-16. It was great fun, and just enough complexity (for me) inspire me to look for something a bit more challenging. I thought that F/A-18 offered more variety with carrier ops than other aircraft. 

Mind you, I'm mostly here because I enjoy flying, procedures, etc. A/A combat and bombing is secondary to me.

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35 minutes ago, markom said:

I only recently got into DCS, and I started with F-16. It was great fun, and just enough complexity (for me) inspire me to look for something a bit more challenging. I thought that F/A-18 offered more variety with carrier ops than other aircraft. 

Mind you, I'm mostly here because I enjoy flying, procedures, etc. A/A combat and bombing is secondary to me.

You found the Viper easy to learn? I've flown is so long in BMS that I forgot what it was like to first learn it. Did you learn and use all the weapons and systems?

Maybe I can talk him into the Viper?

Buzz

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Honestly, especially if you're starting from zero, I think the Hornet is more logical/easier to learn (i.e. when you change pages on the DDI's the OSB's are fully labelled with what they do).  It can be a little overwhelming to start with (but any of these modern jets will be) but it's a pretty forgiving/versatile aircraft.  A-10 is great, but depending what you want, is definitely a little slow getting from point to point 🤨.

Moving from F-16 to F-18 (or in my case, going back to it after flying the F-16 for a while) warped my brain because I had to unlearn all the things I automatically did with the F-16 and reprogram myself to the F-18 -- I am amazed at the people that fly both regularly 🙂.  Very different controls in a lot of ways, even if the general principles are the same.

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Do you really think there is much of a difference in complexity between the modern Jets? 
If you think of it, the complexity is kind of „scaleable“: one can start off just dropping dumb bombs etc…
 

At the end of the day apparently there  are those two jets that are appealing to him…what would be the point in luring him into an….let‘s say…F-86?


Edited by Phantom711
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 vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord.

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1 hour ago, BuzzU said:

You found the Viper easy to learn? I've flown is so long in BMS that I forgot what it was like to first learn it. Did you learn and use all the weapons and systems?

Well, I'm used to weird and obscure systems (I kinda do that for living), and I used to fly with Garmin G1000 and others, which are truly an exercise on how to NOT design UX.

I found Viper's systems logic to be a little more compatible with how my brain worked than Hornet, but as Rob suggested above, it could just be that F/A-18 "complexity" is hidden behind unlearning Viper.

One thing on Viper is that you can do a lot more with just HOTAS than you can on Hornet.

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If he likes multiplayer, then F18
If not, then I think both can be

Personally, I never play single player mode. In multiplayer, the A10 is slow and can only perform DEAD tasks, so you won't make it your main choice. I generally don't use the A10 unless it's an organized, specialized task.

But on the other hand, the A10 is by far the best simulated aircraft. In contrast, the F18 has too many problems in functional simulation. It's definitely worth a try, depending on how much effort you can put into it.

But before that, has he tried to learn to drive a Su25T?

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Tell him to try both planes in free trial period (2 weeks each module)

IMO both these planes are similar in clomplexity (at this stage, I'd say Viper is most complex)

I started DCS with A-10C (to be exact with F-15C - it took me two weeks to decide to buy A-10C, so he can try some FC3 plane also in free trial period) and I wasn't overhelmed (but I'm not new to aircraft sims - I know how to fly, I had to learn systems and tactics, not principals of aviation).

IMO buing FC3 aircrafts is WOFTAM. Since we have free trialas every one can try any plane he wants and then decide to buy it. FC3 aircrafts is like licking icecream thru window.

Between these two aircrafts I'd choose Hornet. I love The Hog and I started my DCS journey with it, but in a long term it's boring - slow, extremly easy to fly, very limited in capabilities. Hornet + Supercarrier is the way.

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Honestly I think they are both pretty easy. The A-10's concept of SPI and SOI is a bit more to complex to wrap your head around and memorize along with the associated HOTAS commands, but you can easily subdivide both modules into easy to digest lessons - and overall both are clear and concise in their interfacing, albeit with the regular Air Force / Navy differences.

Both are absolutely fine as a first module, while I lean towards the F-18 being a bit easier to understand, systems-wise.

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I’d deffo say the Hornet. I started with the A10C but never flew it again once the Hornet came out.

A10C is great once you get to where you need to go (as long as there aren’t any enemy planes about) but it does take a while to get there. That and you are 100% limited to mud moving.

Where as I like to think of the Hornet as a Swiss army knife capable of super sonic flight, It can do pretty much anything. But does he want a fighter jet or a deadly flying bus?

Trying both for free does seem like the obvious best option here though. 

5 hours ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

But on the other hand, the A10 is by far the best simulated aircraft. In contrast, the F18 has too many problems in functional simulation. It's definitely worth a try, depending on how much effort you can put into it.

May I ask what you mean by this? I’m intrigued by which is the most accurately modelled jet in DCS (I suspect the Tomcat must be on the list) 😁 What are the problems in functional simulation with the Hornet? I genuinely would like to know, I’m not trying to start an argument. 🙂


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He's coming over today to fly all three planes on my system. He's already a pilot, so the flying part won't be hard for him. I'll give him some quick lessons on each plane and let him drop some dumb bombs. Maybe a little dogfighting too. I doubt he'll pick the Hog after flying the Hornet and Viper. Between the Hornet and Viper will be up to him.

Then when he has the plane picked he can get the proper WinWing HOTAS for it. I think this is the best plan and takes me out of making the decision for him.

Buzz

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1小时前,Digitalvole说:

 

May I ask what you mean by this? I’m intrigued by which is the most accurately modelled jet in DCS (I suspect the Tomcat must be on the list) 😁 What are the problems in functional simulation with the Hornet? I genuinely would like to know, I’m not trying to start an argument. 🙂

 

As far as I know, the A10C is a military-to-civilian mod. It chopped off some of its functions and went on sale.  At least its functions on avionics are very complete compared to other mods.

I haven't tried the F14, but at least from other people's comments, I know that it is a well-deserved masterpiece by HB.

As for our F18...

You know our complaints come from the love of this fighter. F18 has many unfinished functions and bugs that affect the game experience. We have no idea of the progress of these things, and ED has been opening up new projects. Therefore, the development of F18 functions has been occupied by other projects. For example, CCIP inaccuracy bug. JDAM's LOFT mode, the terminal options for other GPS weapons have not continued to develop. And the radar that has been somewhat problematic (lack of sufficient public information). By and large, the F18 is fine for executing player-written missions, but if you fly for a year, you're bound to encounter bugs. So sometimes I get really mad at why ED doesn't stop to fix bugs and develop unfinished features. But sometimes, think about it and... Forget it, at least it can fly.

I guess this is how most players feel about F18

When you first start playing this game, you will feel like this is an simulator. But if you play it long enough, you realize it's just a game.

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HI.

I would recommend the F/A-18.

Complexity, more or less equal t each other.

Speed; The Hornet arrive to the intersting point faster, and can leave quickly if trouble arrive, but it make it also more demanding in terms of flying and fiddling around with the systems at the same time with less time for that.

Flying: the Hornat has naval operations...

Weapons: The Hornet has a lot of nice toys to play with; A/A, A/G, A/Sea

Systems. The A10 "only" have the TGP, while the Hornet has the radar. More complex but more rewarding...

To me, although it is a bit buggy, the Hornet is the plane for your friend.

I don't like the Hornet, I prefer the F-14 or the Viper, but for the liking of your friend, I vould suggest the Hornet.

Saludos.

Saca111

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1 hour ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

As far as I know, the A10C is a military-to-civilian mod. It chopped off some of its functions and went on sale.  At least its functions on avionics are very complete compared to other mods.

 

Just for my own personal info. Would you consider the A-10C the most accurate modeled plane in DCS?

Leaving out the Tomcat. I can't get along with it's cockpit.

Buzz

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1 hour ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

As far as I know, the A10C is a military-to-civilian mod. It chopped off some of its functions and went on sale.  At least its functions on avionics are very complete compared to other mods.

I haven't tried the F14, but at least from other people's comments, I know that it is a well-deserved masterpiece by HB.

As for our F18...

You know our complaints come from the love of this fighter. F18 has many unfinished functions and bugs that affect the game experience. We have no idea of the progress of these things, and ED has been opening up new projects. Therefore, the development of F18 functions has been occupied by other projects. For example, CCIP inaccuracy bug. JDAM's LOFT mode, the terminal options for other GPS weapons have not continued to develop. And the radar that has been somewhat problematic (lack of sufficient public information). By and large, the F18 is fine for executing player-written missions, but if you fly for a year, you're bound to encounter bugs. So sometimes I get really mad at why ED doesn't stop to fix bugs and develop unfinished features. But sometimes, think about it and... Forget it, at least it can fly.

I guess this is how most players feel about F18

When you first start playing this game, you will feel like this is an simulator. But if you play it long enough, you realize it's just a game.

Yeah, this is how I feel too. It’s a bloody shame because ED have turned me from some one who couldn’t give two hoots about Naval aviation into some one who ONLY wants to do Naval aviation!

The F/A 18 wasn’t anywhere near my fav aircraft (I was a Viper fan) till ED released our one, now sitting in the cockpit feels like sitting in my front room. 😁

Anyway thanks for the reply, and I totally agree, but I’d still recommend the Hornet over the Hog to a new player.

 

 

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The simple difference between the two is that the A-10 just does A2G and the Hornet does both A2A and A2G. It’s either a plus or a minus depending on how you look at it. Considering just the learning curve that would make the A-10 easier to learn. Motivation is another aspect and if what you want is to dogfight, A2A might get you motivated. If on the other hand you get satisfaction from leaving an entire armored division as a smoking wreck, try the Hog. 

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7 hours ago, Shimmergloom667 said:

[...] The A-10's concept of SPI and SOI is a bit more to complex to wrap your head around and memorize along with the associated HOTAS commands [...]

Funny how different brains work differently. To me, this is the most logical, straightforward concept. Absence of it on F/A-18 still messes with my brain after months of flying it. I want my SPI and SOI on Hornet! 🙂

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From my personal experience, wrapping my head around the HOTAS logic for the A-10 was a massive pain in the ***.  Having to memorize the functions of all the different switches was overwhelming as a rookie.  China hat, coolie hat, boat switch, data management switch, target management switch… its a lot.  F-18 has one hat switch you have to memorize functionality for, pretty much everything else is buttons that are labeled by their functionality (e.g. to expand the FOV on your FLIR, you hit the button labeled “FLIR FOV”).  I think the F-18 is a far less frustrating module to learn if you have no prior experience.  

Plus carrier ops are way more fun than land based ops IMO.

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