Landing advice

[killerquagmire]

Hey guys, I have a quick question about an issue that’s been bugging me for a while. 
Every time I watch a tutorial, people go full flaps and gear down and then they trim the pitch to get on speed and bank right into the final approach. Everything seems smooth and gradual. 
However, when I go full flaps and gear down (just under 250 knots) the nose of my plane almost instantly starts to pitch straight up and I have to fight it with the stick to keep it level while trying to adjust the trim which obviously makes the plane pitch up even more. It’s a wrestling match but I eventually get it under control and on speed. However, I’m usually about 5 miles or more out from the runway by then. Surely I’m doing something wrong here?

[Tholozor]

Wait a little bit longer before dropping the flaps if you're flying straight and level (personally I wait until about just under 200). Dropping gear and flaps at the same time is better during an entry break where the extra lift from the flaps extending can help with the turn.

[Dos]

Thanks for the tip @Tholozor. I have been dropping both at the same time at 250 as well and will change it up. I will add this @killerquagmire, I felt the same about the wrestling match then used ATC and found that if I hold the nose steady say on the edged of the runway initially you do have to fight the plane as it will want to pitch up and down dont let it and within seconds your ATC will obey and steady out. This will alleviate having to focus on throttle inputs though if you are cool with that. Just got to glide it in ; )

I will try the gears first now and then flaps under 200 and then ATC perhaps it won't bounce to much or at all due to less speed and engage ATC smoothly.

Good day,

Dos

[BuzzU]

I drop the flaps in the turn.

[markom]

That's what I've been taught on the tiny little Cessna as well. You drop them in the turn, and balooning is almost imperceivable. If you do it in a level flight, you just have to handle the additional lift.

[Laurreth]

Drop everything 90° into the break, and you'll quickly get a feeling for how the plane behaves once you level out. I've found it to still balloon quite a bit, but that's nothing a little forward pressure on the stick can't fix. It becomes a bit of a Kata after a few dozen Bolters. (Yes, I suck at carrier landings, sue me.)

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

To add to the experts above, balloon is inevitable, use only the throttle to control the pitch when you have lowered everything. Make sure you have sufficient distance from the airfield/flat top for you to fine tune your approach. Do not panic, if the first time does not make it, increase speed, be patience and pull off some more distance, then try again.

Practice makes perfect.

[TimRobertsen]

If you fly steady level downwind, then drop the flaps at 9 degrees AoA.

If you're in a turn, then the balooing should just give you a sharper turn. If altitude starts to increase, just increase the bank angel to direct the ballooning horizontally.

Additinally, you can always hold-open the speedbrake. You'll have to hold the button in, since once the flaps start deploying, the speedbrake is retracted.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I read somewhere US Navy does not use air brake once the planes get into pattern.

[TimRobertsen]

16 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I read somewhere US Navy does not use air brake once the planes get into pattern.

That could absolutly be the case. I just do whatever is needed to be on-speed and ready before I'm abeam

I find that (as most others do to, I'm sure) if the windspeed at sealevel is 15 or above, the Hornet doesn't sufficiently slow down before I start on the downwind leg. Unless, of course, you fancy starting the break 1,2 - 1,5nm upwind of the carrier. I prefere starting the break as early as possible.

[CBStu]

I drop flaps on a straight in approach at 180. They slow the plane quickly as you would expect and there is very little ballooning.

[oldcrusty]

So, the conclusion here is... everyone does it their own way, which is cool.

Just a quick reminder though:  The flap switch is basically a consent switch.  When switched to half or full, the jet is 'ready' to re-configure to powered approach mode when the a/s goes below 250 kts. (I think it's 240 kts going from PA to UA).  Which means, you can flip the switch to FULL at 600 kts, coming in for SHB and all you'll see is a little amber 'flaps' lit up below flap status lights. Nothing else will happen until the a/s bleeds off below 250.  Then, the LEF's, flaps, flaperons, stabs, etc. are scheduled by FCS, gradually... no sudden drop to 'full'.

Currently the ballooning is not that bad.  I'm curious though how things will change after the FCS update (as part of FM update, I guess)

[BuzzU]

5 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

So, the conclusion here is... everyone does it their own way, which is cool.

Just a quick reminder though:  The flap switch is basically a consent switch.  When switched to half or full, the jet is 'ready' to re-configure to powered approach mode when the a/s goes below 250 kts. (I think it's 240 kts going from PA to UA).  Which means, you can flip the switch to FULL at 600 kts, coming in for SHB and all you'll see is a little amber 'flaps' lit up below flap status lights. Nothing else will happen until the a/s bleeds off below 250.  Then, the LEF's, flaps, flaperons, stabs, etc. are scheduled by FCS, gradually... no sudden drop to 'full'.

Currently the ballooning is not that bad.  I'm curious though how things will change after the FCS update (as part of FM update, I guess)

That's what I do. I'm too busy in the turn to fumble for the flap switch, so like you say. Flip it early. I know i'll be in the turn when i'm down to flap speed and it's nice to not worry about it.

[killerquagmire]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I will put it to good use!

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

One note: I may be wrong but flaps on the F-14 is rather dedicated. Please watch the speed before lowering. And raise then before you power up and abandon landing attempt.

[Spurts]

The F-14 is not the F/A-18.  The Hornet will protect itself where the Tomcat does only what it is told.

[Hiob]

...and when you tell her to kill you - she will happily comply.

[Spurts]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

...and when you tell her to kill you - she will happily comply.

yessir

[Ephedrin]

Everytime somebody tells you 

Am 1.9.2022 um 18:18 schrieb killerquagmire:

and then they trim the pitch to get on speed

they tell you nonsense and that‘s why you‘re having issues with the nose. 
 

Trim is not a flight control. Not in a C172, not in a 737 and not in an F/A-18. Trim has exactly and only one purpose and that is to neutralize control forces. You fly the airplane with the stick and if you drop the flaps and this results in a nose up reaction then push it down. If you have to keep pushing THEN trim the forces away. If you let the airplane raise its nose because the electronics don’t compensate enough you give up the control and become a passenger of your plane. You’re supposed to be the pilot though.
 

It‘s entire nonsense and bad flying to trim the velocity vector into the E bracket even if it‘s a recurring advice in hundreds of Youtube videos. Trim is not a flight control. Period. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Ephedrin

[BuzzU]

28 minutes ago, Ephedrin said:

Everytime somebody tells you 

they tell you nonsense and that‘s why you‘re having issues with the nose. 
 

Trim is not a flight control. Not in a C172, not in a 737 and not in an F/A-18. Trim has exactly and only one purpose and that is to neutralize control forces. You fly the airplane with the stick and if you drop the flaps and this results in a nose up reaction then push it down. If you have to keep pushing THEN trim the forces away. If you let the airplane raise its nose because the electronics don’t compensate enough you give up the control and become a passenger of your plane. You’re supposed to be the pilot though.
 

It‘s entire nonsense and bad flying to trim the velocity vector into the E bracket even if it‘s a recurring advice in hundreds of Youtube videos. Trim is not a flight control. Period. 

 

Makes no sense to me. If we don't trim the nose up for landing we'll get a bolter every time.

How do you keep the nose up?

[razo+r]

2 minutes ago, BuzzU said:

Makes no sense to me. If we don't trim the nose up for landing we'll get a bolter every time.

How do you keep the nose up?

He means you are not supposed to let go of the stick and then trim your nose on-speed.

He says you get on speed with the stick by yourself and then trim the forces away.

Edited September 6, 2022 by razo+r

[Ephedrin]

vor 1 Minute schrieb razo+r:

He means you are not supposed to let go of the stick and then trim your nose on-speed.

He says you get on speed with the stick by yourself and then trim the forces away.

 

Exactly. Fly the velocity vector into the E Bracket and if you have to keep pressure on the stick trim that pressure away. In a real F18 it would be more obvious since the forces are much stronger there but it‘s a principle of flying any airplane: fly with the stick or yoke and trim forces away.

[BuzzU]

Oh, ok. I've been doing it that way automatically.

Carry on.

Edited September 6, 2022 by BuzzU

[Ephedrin]

Am 6.9.2022 um 20:38 schrieb BuzzU:

Oh, ok. I've been doing it that way automatically.

Carry on.

 

Yeah totally understandable and I catch myself often enough to do the same. The FCS of the hornet invites you to do that. Just flip the switch and the velocity vector comes up towards the E-bracket. The problem is that you actually do a try and error here, you don‘t fly and give up the responsibility. And it takes time. Flip the trim switch, wait, flip the switch, wait again… it‘s inaccurate and if something unforseen happens like a strong thermal from s railstation below you (or a slightly too high approach speed for your current weight) you lose your nose, it will go somewhere you don‘t expect it to be. That‘s why it‘s important to always stay ahead and in command of your airplane. Keep your hands around the stick firmly, if the nose climbs push it down. Always fly the airplane with the stick and don‘t let it go. If you have to hold the stick forward to keep the velocity vector in the bracket you trim forward to relieve the force. Most of our home joysticks will be returned to the center but in reality the force would be removed and the stick would stay there. If you only flipped the trim switch this would move the stick itself, too, that’s what I meant it would be more obvious in the real hornet.
 

If you‘re on speed in calm air you‘ll be able to perfectly manage your glide path with the engines and only use the ailerons for directional control. But always expect to make corrections with the elevator.

[oldcrusty]

On 9/8/2022 at 2:04 AM, Ephedrin said:

...Most of our home joysticks will be returned to the center but in reality the force would be removed and the stick would stay there. If you only flipped the trim switch this would move the stick itself, too, that’s what I meant it would be more obvious in the real hornet...
 

No, the real Hornet's stick doesn't move as you trim.