Next Project

[FlankerFan35]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

J10B was a PESA radar, so similar issues. 

I mean if Deka can build a convincing AESA radar model maybe. I.e. Razbam is about the only one with a good well explained radar model for the M2k. I see deka has some "features" for the JF17, but really they need a white paper to explain it all IMO. 

 

At this point I just want another red gen 4 idc if it's a J-10A T_T, even a FC3 11B, 27SM

[Harlikwin]

13 hours ago, FlankerFan35 said:

At this point I just want another red gen 4 idc if it's a J-10A T_T, even a FC3 11B, 27SM

Yeah I get it. Though personally I've pretty much given up on "modern" DCS. Too much modern stuff is unknown, or not modeled or broken with way too many modules. The overall quality of the CW stuff is generally better and getting better from most devs. Plus CW gameplay is way more fun than just slinging aamrams back n forth, depending on how they work on any given patch cycle. But I understand people want 4th gen stuff, even if the gameplay is pretty sus.

 

[FlankerFan35]

On 9/13/2022 at 6:55 PM, Harlikwin said:

Cool, what fictional radar features will our magical AESA radar have then?

early batch 10Bs didn't have AESA because it wasn't ready iirc, so our 10B wouldn't have it.

Ideally that would or could come down the road.

[F-2]

1 hour ago, FlankerFan35 said:

early batch 10Bs didn't have AESA because it wasn't ready iirc, so our 10B wouldn't have it.

Ideally that would or could come down the road.

That’s disputed though. China claims it always had an AESA but changed models for the C.

[BalticDude]

I'm just patiently waiting for something

Maybe we'll get info once JF-17 is officially completed.

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, FlankerFan35 said:

early batch 10Bs didn't have AESA because it wasn't ready iirc, so our 10B wouldn't have it.

Ideally that would or could come down the road.

The thought was the 10B had some sort of PESA. 

And the question still stands, Is there enough known about modern PESA/AESA tech to even try to bother model it, or will it be "just made up" with a double dose of handwavium, cuz folks want to have some modern day DCS fantasy?

 

I'll remind you the F18C should have MSI... We don't have MSI despite knowing the basics of how it works. AESA radar systems are a decade newer than that, and for China, nearly 2 decades... So are we gonna get a "realstic" representation of less than 10 year old radar tech in DCS? I'm gonna give that a hard pass, just like anything on the EF being "realistic".

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Harlikwin

[F-2]

PESA really isn’t so different then MSA you just have to know what your modeling. AESA is different, there are many commercial systems and the theory of how it works is know, the issue is besides most military AESA systems being very classified to the point some have no unaltered publicly available photos, most have very complex scanning algorithms that you would either need extensive flight test data or the algorithms themselves which are certainly very secretive.

 

it’s possible Deka could have been given this but I think it’s fairly unlikely (but who know, it’s really a matter of somebody in a position of authority clearing it). the Jeff and J-10a upgraded are getting an air cooled AESA update. If we don’t see that I really doubt we’ll get a B/C aesa. My guess if we get a J-10 it would be a 2000s J-10a which is very similar to our Jeff and no longer the PLAAF standard.

[Harlikwin]

5 hours ago, F-2 said:

PESA really isn’t so different then MSA you just have to know what your modeling. AESA is different, there are many commercial systems and the theory of how it works is know, the issue is besides most military AESA systems being very classified to the point some have no unaltered publicly available photos, most have very complex scanning algorithms that you would either need extensive flight test data or the algorithms themselves which are certainly very secretive.

 

it’s possible Deka could have been given this but I think it’s fairly unlikely (but who know, it’s really a matter of somebody in a position of authority clearing it). the Jeff and J-10a upgraded are getting an air cooled AESA update. If we don’t see that I really doubt we’ll get a B/C aesa. My guess if we get a J-10 it would be a 2000s J-10a which is very similar to our Jeff and no longer the PLAAF standard.

I mean PESA is certainly better and more complex than MSA radar. For example the Mig31 Zasoln PESA can STT multiple targets for its R-33 missiles. And that is a very primitive radar compared to modern AESAS, and I'm sure there still aren't any real details about it out there despite being from the 80's.

I think there is certainly "theory" out there on AESA and the very basics of what it can do, but then that gets to the actual details of can actually do and how well it can do it and so forth. And no one is gonna tell Deka that. So it will be a "made up" radar if they end up doing it.

That also doesn't touch on a modern MSI system, or modern IRST system and how those actually function. Again, it would be pure guesswork because once again, no one is giving them modern fighter capabilities. 
 

And before someone says I'm being mean to Deka, I will make these same exact arguments against the EF. 

Personally I'd also rather see a J10A as technologically it fits better with the current crop of "modern" DCS fighters. 

[F-2]

48 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

I mean PESA is certainly better and more complex than MSA radar. For example the Mig31 Zasoln PESA can STT multiple targets for its R-33 missiles. And that is a very primitive radar compared to modern AESAS, and I'm sure there still aren't any real details about it out there despite being from the 80's.

I think there is certainly "theory" out there on AESA and the very basics of what it can do, but then that gets to the actual details of can actually do and how well it can do it and so forth. And no one is gonna tell Deka that. So it will be a "made up" radar if they end up doing it.

That also doesn't touch on a modern MSI system, or modern IRST system and how those actually function. Again, it would be pure guesswork because once again, no one is giving them modern fighter capabilities. 
 

And before someone says I'm being mean to Deka, I will make these same exact arguments against the EF. 

Personally I'd also rather see a J10A as technologically it fits better with the current crop of "modern" DCS fighters. 

I don’t think I disagree with you, I’d like a J-10a and think it’s the most plausible, I just don’t want to speak for Deka. J-10a also has fox one and three which is cool. 
 

PESA has some benefits but also draw backs like additional phase shifter loss. They really only differ from MSA in the antenna system and date back to WWII. RBE2 has some info on how the antenna works in the public domain as an example.

 

MSI is interesting. VRS Superbug has an MSI implementation, which is limited but the Devs have talked about how it differs from the real thing and expressed the desire to do a more thought version implying they know how to do so. Maybe ED has old information?

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, F-2 said:

I don’t think I disagree with you, I’d like a J-10a and think it’s the most plausible, I just don’t want to speak for Deka. J-10a also has fox one and three which is cool. 
 

PESA has some benefits but also draw backs like additional phase shifter loss. They really only differ from MSA in the antenna system and date back to WWII. RBE2 has some info on how the antenna works in the public domain as an example.

 

MSI is interesting. VRS Superbug has an MSI implementation, which is limited but the Devs have talked about how it differs from the real thing and expressed the desire to do a more thought version implying they know how to do so. Maybe ED has old information?

So, MSI has a long history at least with US planes and its not some singular thing. Rather it is a set of systems and techniques and integrations that evolved over time in parallel to sensor capabilities. So for example MSI on an early 90's hornet is going to be far more primitive and less capable than on say our 2005 era hornet, which due to things like DL integration as well as EGI/GPS integration makes MSI work far better due to the techniques that can be used. Same story for the F15E, and post MSIP 15C that had similar integrations, and even Vipers had it, though I'm not sure exactly how well they were integrated. The EF absolutely has MSI as well and its employment is built around the use of those systems to provide massively superior SA. But again, I doubt HB will even include it, which is an absurd situation. 

My guess is that the J10 and possibly even the JF17 have very similar capabilities.

As for what information has or doesn't have on it IDK. But one of the core difficulties in implementing it is that each sensor or type of signal received is going to have "errors" and how those errors are actually correlated into various types of tracks is likely information they don't have. As well as issues such as tolerance stacking when you might have some sort of info from sensor 1, and sort of correct but conflicting data from sensor two, and then other possible sources of right, but not quite right information from say another flight member. 

And the fact is DCS sensor modeling as implemented by ED has 0 uncertainty at all. In DCS you are targeting a "point", whereas in the real world your BVR target is basically a "probability spheroid" of where the target is "localized". One example of this is how RAID modes are implemented in the current modules. IRL at long range if you have 2 or more aircraft in a radar range cell, they will show up as a single contact (yay peak top-gun moment right). Well RAID modes/techniques can be employed to figure out if that "single" contact is actually multi-ship formation. But in DCS currently there is no point to raid modes since all targets get their own unique "blip" so you never have to wonder about it. 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Harlikwin

[BalticDude]

I personally hope we're getting J-7G but it's not up to me

[Harlikwin]

3 minutes ago, BalticDude said:

I personally hope we're getting J-7G but it's not up to me

A renaissance man I see. 

[FlankerFan35]

On 10/10/2022 at 2:38 PM, F-2 said:

That’s disputed though. China claims it always had an AESA but changed models for the C.

 

On 10/10/2022 at 3:06 PM, Harlikwin said:

The thought was the 10B had some sort of PESA. 

And the question still stands, Is there enough known about modern PESA/AESA tech to even try to bother model it, or will it be "just made up" with a double dose of handwavium, cuz folks want to have some modern day DCS fantasy?

 

I'll remind you the F18C should have MSI... We don't have MSI despite knowing the basics of how it works. AESA radar systems are a decade newer than that, and for China, nearly 2 decades... So are we gonna get a "realstic" representation of less than 10 year old radar tech in DCS? I'm gonna give that a hard pass, just like anything on the EF being "realistic".

 

 

The 10B is quite interesting as early on it was quite a mix of 10A tech and new stuff that wasn't quite ready for the 10C, so depending on the batch you'll find different engines, sensors, radars etc. 10Cs are even quite different to 10Bs despite the testing. In my fantasy world we get a 10B early batch with AL-31FN, PESA and PL-8/12 to start and as time goes on perhaps new things are added as possible like WS-10, PL-10, PL-15 and so on.

Early 10As would be cool as well but it's just a faster JF-17 without true multirole ability and systems like MAWS, not sure if later 10As even have it as on 10B/C which is much needed for those of us who fly online and will soon face 15E/EF (fun!!). Although recently we've seen some 10A receive new 10C antennae and PL-10 so this likely means they've gotten the newer helmets, datalink, navigation and may get newer radars as well to support PL-15s as well as more multirole ability, if this is the case, I'd be happy to get a 10A knowing it could be upgraded down the line.

Why do I keep mentioning upgrade you say? well Deka has already stated they'd add a WS-13E engine option if and when JF-17 blk 1s get it which suggests they are open to adding new things down the line, I'd love to see this approach brought to a J-10A or B.

 

 

Here are images of 10A with PL-10 (top) and new antennae (bot)

Edited October 12, 2022 by FlankerFan35

[Stratos]

5 hours ago, BalticDude said:

I personally hope we're getting J-7G but it's not up to me

I vote for it as well!

[FlankerFan35]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

I vote for it as well!

Would be cool but we have plenty of redfor cold war types and a 21 already, red needs a gen 4 however as we only have one FF kind of red aircraft

[WinterH]

Yep, a late J-7 like the G is my choice by far too!

[GUFA]

Personally would like to see an A-5c Pakistani  spec, Xi'an JH 7, but think its probably too new. or the Chinese SA321 license build.

[Wyvern]

I mean, as i said already. There was an FF J-11 in work. they didnt have enough info on the RWR, the Radar, and the MFD Pages. JF-17 took priority. 

The JF-17 is supposed to come out of EA at the end of the year. So there is an chance.

[F-2]

11 hours ago, Wyvern said:

I mean, as i said already. There was an FF J-11 in work. they didnt have enough info on the RWR, the Radar, and the MFD Pages. JF-17 took priority. 

The JF-17 is supposed to come out of EA at the end of the year. So there is an chance.

It wasn’t meant to be full fidelity I believe, it was “Semi clickable” I believe 

[FlankerFan35]

7 hours ago, F-2 said:

It wasn’t meant to be full fidelity I believe, it was “Semi clickable” I believe 

I'm near building a J-10/Su-30MKK shrine to pray to.

[Poriaresu]

Rumors on chinese internet says Deka are working on military simulation project for PLA. And that's explain why Deka show very few these years on social media. News shows PLAAF and  army air crop using DCS in VR as part of their training. But they use JF17 and J11A for J-10 and J-11 pilots. It's wouldn't be surprise if PLA wants some more detialed mods like J-10C and J-11B. And they maybe want some chinese maps in game aswell. Deka seems perfcet for those jobs.

I'm thinking is it possible to make a new mod with some of the results after those projects are over? Like J-10C mods could have some modify become J-10CP.

[FlankerFan35]

14 hours ago, Poriaresu said:

Rumors on chinese internet says Deka are working on military simulation project for PLA. And that's explain why Deka show very few these years on social media. News shows PLAAF and  army air crop using DCS in VR as part of their training. But they use JF17 and J11A for J-10 and J-11 pilots. It's wouldn't be surprise if PLA wants some more detialed mods like J-10C and J-11B. And they maybe want some chinese maps in game aswell. Deka seems perfcet for those jobs.

I'm thinking is it possible to make a new mod with some of the results after those projects are over? Like J-10C mods could have some modify become J-10CP.

can you link anything about this topic please?

[Poriaresu]

6小时前，FlankerFan35说：

can you link anything about this topic please?

It's just some rumors on SNS group discussion :D

Here is a CCTV news image about PLAAF using DCS JF-17 for J-10 pilots training.

00:47-01:10

[FlankerFan35]

23 hours ago, Poriaresu said:

It's just some rumors on SNS group discussion

Here is a CCTV news image about PLAAF using DCS JF-17 for J-10 pilots training.

00:47-01:10

Very cool, let's hope Deka doing J-10 then

[Torbernite]

3小时前，FlankerFan35说：

Very cool, let's hope Deka doing J-10 then

Actually, the rumors also say Deka has already made many stuffs at the official request but can't publish them as civil products by now. However, at least they are thought to be trustworthy by the military and may be allowed to gather some information of those less important aircrafts.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Torbernite