Interesting read

[Belphe]

Loads of interesting pointers in this article:

https://www.helisimmer.com/articles/real-pilot-impressions-ah-64d-apache-dcs

[fabio.dangelo]

The flight model comes out pretty bad...

[Hiob]

2 hours ago, fabio.dangelo said:

The flight model comes out pretty bad...

Hmm, if you read carefully, he doesn't really say much about the flight model. More about how the control inputs translates to the subsequent effects in the simulation.

Regarding the flight model he pointed out three things in particular I think:

1. VRS behavior is good

2. Inertia (weight of the helicopter) feels to much

3. Engine is overtorqued too easily

Other than that he pointed out the lack or inaccuracy of several systems....

One can probably argue about what belongs to the flight model and what not, but things that I would consider most important for the "flight model" (like aerodynamics, flight performance and thing that have to do with airflow in general) he didn't even touch in his assessment.

Interesting read nevertheless, and ED still has a lot to do with the Apache for sure.*

(*to be clear, with that I don't mean based on this single, subjective review, but based on the fact that it is a fricking complex aircraft!)

Edited September 21, 2022 by Hiob

[Raptor9]

I posted my own personal response to the article. I won't re-hash any of it here, since I don't want to beat a dead horse.
 

[skypickle]

Todays update significantly improved the handling

[Dagobert666]

7 minutes ago, skypickle said:

Todays update significantly improved the handling

Really? The patch notes say nothing about significant flight model changes at all.

[Apache 64]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb skypickle:

Todays update significantly improved the handling

I feel the exact opposite.

You can now take off almost without a rudder.
The rudder authority is much weaker than before. This requires even more rudder input with less effect and even more loss of power to the engines as a result.
It is almost impossible to fly with the nose in the direction of flight even at high speeds. Even in complete calm.

Hovering with automatic altitude hold is almost impossible. Even in ground effect.

I had to stop after a few hours, so unhappy am I with the current state.
I can hardly believe anyone tested this before the release.
No offense intended, but I didn't expect anything like this. I love the Apache and have been very happy with the flight model so far.

Until today's patch. Hope for a hotfix.

[skypickle]

I n this thread

two Apache drivers testing for the ED team explained explained that 'heading hold' is always active in the apache until boot input moves you off axis ~2 degrees but in DCS that number was like 10-20% giving that 'stiction feel'.  The update rendered the helicopter more stable for me and that annoying rolling tendency with collective inputs has been corrected. 

 

In the past, I would set attitude control to dampen out these issues but that seems unecessary now. Time will tell as I put it through its pacdesm. Still dont know if I can be CPG in a multiplayer server and have George as pilot. That is needed.

[sirrah]

7 minutes ago, skypickle said:

Still dont know if I can be CPG in a multiplayer server and have George as pilot. That is needed.

That feature was added today 

From today's patch notes:

Quote

• Added change of seats in the cockpit by a player in multiplayer.

Didn't yet get the chance to test it myself though

[InteR]

Hello, I write to you the link from helisimmer where a real AH-64D pilot made a review from ED DCS: AH-64D.

I think it is very interesting for users and ED developers.

Enjoy it.

[razo+r]

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by razo+r

[fapador]

Its worrying that the FM according to him seems mile's off....

I still haven't bought the AH-64 and waiting for the trial as I always want to test the FM's before, since the gazelle incident.

 

I am aware of it currently being developed and there have already  been many Fm tweaks with the past updates, so it seems, it was wise of me not to jump in straight away

1 hour ago, InteR said:

Hello, I write to you the link from helisimmer where a real AH-64D pilot made a review from ED DCS: AH-64D.

I think it is very interesting for users and ED developers.

Enjoy it.

.

[Dagobert666]

20 minutes ago, fapador said:

Its worrying that the FM according to him seems mile's off....

I still haven't bought the AH-64 and waiting for the trial as I always want to test the FM's before, since the gazelle incident.

 

I am aware of it currently being developed and there have already  been many Fm tweaks with the past updates, so it seems, it was wise of me not to jump in straight away

.

The problem is, this is a single purely subjective voice.
And He's not saying now it's Miles off.
He says the helicopter feels too heavy and it's too easy to push the helicopter to its torque limit. At the same time it is a bit too difficult to control when hovering, because everything is way too sensitive.

I really don't know what "scary, worrying" is about it. The FM is just work in progress and the small adjustments that take time and are very labour-intensive. This reminds me of the 80/20 rule.

I definitely don't want to downplay that here! With the OB patch yesterday it got a lot worse for me. Torque, tail rotor and SAS are somehow totally messing around now.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dagobert666

[fapador]

1 hour ago, Dagobert666 said:

The problem is, this is a single purely subjective voice.
And He's not

He says the helicopter feels too heavy and it's too easy to push the helicopter to its torque limit. At the same time it is a bit too difficult to control when hovering, because everything is way too sensitive.

I really don't know what "scary, worrying" is about it. The FM is just work in progress and the small adjustments that take time and are very labour-intensive. This reminds me of the 80/20 rule.

I definitely don't want to downplay that here! With the OB patch yesterday it got a lot worse for me. Torque, tail rotor and SAS are somehow totally messing around now.

He has been flying 64's since 2005 he has flown 6 different helicopter types, 8 if we include the 64' versions as well...

I don't think he is purely subjective at all, not even close to subjective. He is also using the puma which is considered "premium" grade control type most of us don't even have access to,

so yeah like I said his review is not subjective at all IMO.

1 hour ago, Dagobert666 said:

And He's not saying now it's Miles off.

He is saying its like nothing he had flown before. That's miles off to my ears. 

IMO

Edited September 22, 2022 by fapador

[Lurker]

Good, honest review. Also KUDOS for taking the time to mention how control peripherals have a huge impact on how the FM is tuned and made. This is something that a lot of us sim enthusiasts are definitely not taking into consideration when posting on here. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Lurker

[Dagobert666]

19 minutes ago, fapador said:

He has been flying 64's since 2005 he has flown 6 different helicopter types, 8 if we include the 64' versions as well...

I don't think he is purely subjective at all, not even close to subjective. He is also using the puma which is considered "premium" grade control type most of us don't even have access to,

so yeah like I said his review is not subjective at all IMO.

He is saying its like nothing he had flown before. That's miles off to my ears. 

IMO

 

That's semantics: "He is saying its like nothing he had flown before. That's miles off to my ears." 

In my eyes it is not....*shrug


1.  He's not the only REAL Apache pilot flying the DCS-AH64D.
2. Even here in the forum there are various REAL AH64 pilots. If what he writes would all confirm, then it would no longer be a subjective individual Opinion.
3. That's not the case. There are even counter-depictions of them.

Again, he's definitely not wrong. Apache's FM still needs a lot of work. The last OB patch actually made it worse. But I oppose the representation that FM from Apache is "miles off the mark" that is simply exaggerated.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dagobert666

[Tom Kazansky]

Thanks for sharing this review.

It seems I never felt closer to a real AH-64 driver than as I read this:

"When I first tried this model, I found it almost impossible to fly.

It rolled over almost immediately shredding the rotor blades."

[Hobel]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb skypickle:

I n this thread

two Apache drivers testing for the ED team explained explained that 'heading hold' is always active in the apache until boot input moves you off axis ~2 degrees but in DCS that number was like 10-20% giving that 'stiction feel'.  The update rendered the helicopter more stable for me and that annoying rolling tendency with collective inputs has been corrected. 

 

In the past, I would set attitude control to dampen out these issues but that seems unecessary now. Time will tell as I put it through its pacdesm. Still dont know if I can be CPG in a multiplayer server and have George as pilot. That is needed.

Feel the same for me.

[admiki]

3 hours ago, fapador said:

He has been flying 64's since 2005 he has flown 6 different helicopter types, 8 if we include the 64' versions as well...

I don't think he is purely subjective at all, not even close to subjective. He is also using the puma which is considered "premium" grade control type most of us don't even have access to,

so yeah like I said his review is not subjective at all IMO.

He is saying its like nothing he had flown before. That's miles off to my ears. 

IMO

 

I fly with 3 IRL Apache pilots, one of which is ED SME. And there is Raptor here too. If they say, yeah, it's WIP, it's close, but still needs to be tuned, I am going to take their word over "it's miles off".

[macedk]

Yet, many flies the bird fine....

 

[Krupi]

5 hours ago, fapador said:

Its worrying that the FM according to him seems mile's off....

I still haven't bought the AH-64 and waiting for the trial as I always want to test the FM's before, since the gazelle incident.

 

I am aware of it currently being developed and there have already  been many Fm tweaks with the past updates, so it seems, it was wise of me not to jump in straight away

.

After having read the review I have to ask, did YOU actually read it?  

Edited September 22, 2022 by Krupi

[Floyd1212]

Yes, many are able to fly just fine and enjoy themselves.  Have I had to learn to adapt to some of the quirks in the FM? Yes.  Do I regret purchasing the module in the EA stage? Not at all.

It may not be for everyone, though.

[Hiob]

26 minutes ago, Krupi said:

After having read the review I have to ask, did YOU actually read it?  

 

Thank you. Then I‘m not the only one. 

[fapador]

1 hour ago, admiki said:

I fly with 3 IRL Apache pilots, one of which is ED SME. And there is Raptor here too. If they say, yeah, it's WIP, it's close, but still needs to be tuned, I am going to take their word over "it's miles off".

Funny how they didn't notice all the quirks, Joe Hudson did... 

 

Like wrongly implemented Boresight Unit not working realistically with even wrong ring  colors...

 

49 minutes ago, Krupi said:

After having read the review I have to ask, did YOU actually read it?  

AAaa ..........Yes?  and my personal opinion is that he seems a little  displeased (but try's to keep the review inline). 

based on  his words..., and I quote here:

"Is this a super realistic Apache flight simulator? No, no it isn't"

Edited September 22, 2022 by fapador

[fapador]

54 minutes ago, Krupi said:

After having read the review I have to ask, did YOU actually read it?  

 

27 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Thank you. Then I‘m not the only one. 

Not only I read the review, but also the comments, I urge you to go look for yourself. 

Also, I am not the only one interpeting his review that way 

For example look the top comment from FilkCH you might even  relate yourself's to it 

and I quote here: 

"Hey Joe, first of all thanks for your write up I really enjoyed your insights and I wasn’t aware that the DCS Apache is so far off the real thing still. Me as a naive gamer would’ve thought the DCS apache is really close to the real thing "