w.i.p Flight Model (FM) since [21.09.2022] DCS 2.7.18.30348 Open Beta

[Dagobert666]

What I have found out so far. I would appreciate your opinion here!

1) Tail rotor power has been changed somewhat. He now has so much power that when the rudder pedals are in the middle position (center) he lets the helicopter turn (YAW) to the left.
You can also take off almost without a rudder.

More power sounds good at first, but now it's extremely difficult to land on sand without tipping the helicopter over.

--> Shouldn't the rotor blades of the tail rotor glide neutrally through the air in the center position? why do they still generate so much thrust?

2) Barometric Altitude Hold. Unable to keep the helicopter at a constant altitude when flying forward. Oscillation always occurs. So if you fly at 100 kt at 400 feet and want to stabilize it there, it will swing back and forth between 395 and 405 feet in the first few seconds. Then after a short time between 390 and 410. Then at some point between 350 and 450. From then on the torque of the helicopter can no longer be controlled and you have to cancel the autopilot.

-->It has definitely gotten worse since yesterday. Since I have flown very intensively this week so far and have not had the problem.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dagobert666

[Scaley]

2 hours ago, Dagobert666 said:

2) Barometric Altitude Hold. Unable to keep the helicopter at a constant altitude when flying forward. Oscillation always occurs. So if you fly at 100 kt at 400 feet and want to stabilize it there, it will swing back and forth between 395 and 405 feet in the first few seconds. Then after a short time between 390 and 410. Then at some point between 350 and 450. From then on the torque of the helicopter can no longer be controlled and you have to cancel the autopilot.

-->It has definitely gotten worse since yesterday. Since I have flown very intensively this week so far and have not had the problem.

 

 

This will be due to the tuning of the SCAS Collective channel which provides vertical velocity damping. When I did some flight model edits I produced this behaviour. If you reduce the SCAS channel authority (which controlled vertical velocity damping) but don't also reduce the ALT HOLD mode authority (which seeks an altitude) you get this overshooting behaviour. It's called "divergent hunting" in control system theory. Cause and solution are well described in any basic engineering textbook on the subject. I'll post a use-mod to fix it and try to remember to put it here. 

[Dagobert666]

Addendum to point 1.
It's not that the tail rotor has more power.
The zero position has been shifted to the right. We all know that on the ground with 0 cyclics the Apache is at about 18% torque. This is NOT the case anymore. It's at 20% now! To get back to 18% you have to press the right pedal.... In addition, if you press the left pedal fully you get 30% torque and with the full right Pedela you get 60% torque... That's totally broken at the moment. ..

+Improved by bradmick

+Video Proof

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Dagobert666

[bradmick]

Flat pitch torque in the actual apache is about 18 to 19% torque. 

[Dagobert666]

9 minutes ago, bradmick said:

Flat pitch torque in the actual apache is about 18 to 19% torque. 

Yes, thank you, I corrected my statement

[Galm1]

I knew something felt strange.  I went to take off after the update and I couldn't get steady.  Whatever they did in the update it messed up the Hind too.  It's very frustrating and I hope they fix it quick.

[Hobel]

hm interesting for my feeling it is better than before the update especially regarding the YAW.

[Dagobert666]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

hm interesting for my feeling it is better than before the update especially regarding the YAW.

Yes, on the surface, at least it makes starting easier.
However, it is most likely a bug.

It makes landing on a FARP/FOB on soft ground like sand almost impossible. The power of the tail rotor now, even with the pedals at 0, brings the helicopter to a halt just before dynamic rollover. Any minor inaccuracy when landing now makes you lose the rotor blades.

Also, if you're standing idle somewhere at the airport, then the helicopter just turns in circles by itself, as you can see in my video, although I don't make any rudder or collective inputs...

[hreich]

It's better for me...Before, always left rudder spam was applied at take off - i had to move pedals few time left/right to get it to center...Now when slowing down from 50 -30 knots, i dont need to apply so much left rudder...also on takeoff, it's not needed to apply so much left rudder

[Belphe]

Worse for me.

Pay attention to your idle torque. It is now 20% instead of 17-18 before the patch. To get the torque down you need to apply a little right rudder. Is this true to the real thing?

Even if it is, try the following:

- fly straight e.g. North at 35kts

- yaw right 90 degrees but maintain North direction of flight (strafing left)

- yaw back left 90 degrees maintaining the speed and direction 

I find it extremely difficult to yaw back left and sometimes even enter a spin to the right (rear rotor stall? Is it so easily done in real life? 35kts is not the maximum strafing speed). I believe that this is caused by an insufficient rudder force caused by shifting the center of authority in the FM.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Belphe

[Swift.]

4 minutes ago, Belphe said:

Worse for me.

Pay attention to your idle torque. It is now 20% instead of 17-18 before the patch. To get the torque down you need to apply a little right rudder. Is this true to the real thing?

Even if it is, try the following:

- fly straight e.g. North at 35kts

- yaw right 90 degrees but maintain North direction of flight (strafing left)

- yaw back left 90 degrees maintaining the speed and direction 

I find it extremely difficult to yaw back left and sometimes even enter a spin to the right. I believe that this is caused by an insufficient rudder force caused by shifting the center of authority in the FM.

 

Tail rotor flat pitch is slightly to the right of neutral pedal, this is correct.

The yawing issue is likely due to EDs modelling of tail rotor VRS, there has been a lot of SME feedback on this so I'm expecting a fix shortly.

[Dagobert666]

36 minutes ago, Belphe said:

Worse for me.

Pay attention to your idle torque. It is now 20% instead of 17-18 before the patch. To get the torque down you need to apply a little right rudder. Is this true to the real thing?

Even if it is, try the following:

- fly straight e.g. North at 35kts

- yaw right 90 degrees but maintain North direction of flight (strafing left)

- yaw back left 90 degrees maintaining the speed and direction 

I find it extremely difficult to yaw back left and sometimes even enter a spin to the right (rear rotor stall? Is it so easily done in real life? 35kts is not the maximum strafing speed). I believe that this is caused by an insufficient rudder force caused by shifting the center of authority in the FM.

 

Yes, it has been officially confirmed that the anti-torque pedals in the real Apache are set as they are currently set.

So neutral pedal position is NOT 0 thrust at the tail rotor. It takes some getting used to, but it's actually really cool to take off and land once you get used to it.

Just click on "go to solution" and you will get the exact answer that Raptor9 gave.

[Dominator]

The flight in helicopter is just way to much work and takes all the fun out of wanting to fly it.

Any good tips to stop it wanting to go right all the time. It really feels unstable and awkward to control.

Also I do not have rudder pedals.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Dominator

[Hiob]

30 minutes ago, Dominator said:

The flight in helicopter is just way to much work and takes all the fun out of wanting to fly it.

Any good tips to stop it wanting to go right all the time. It really feels unstable and awkward to control.

Also I do not have rudder pedals.

 

Cyclic left and trim…. pushing right is normal for this helicopter.

Helicopter flying is so satisfying to me, because you have to fly it all the time and balance so many inputs. It’s hard, but once you managed it, it’s very rewarding.

I can’t imagine doing it without proper pedals though. Some use twist axis or even the keyboard, but I find pedals the only thing manageable for me.

[Dagobert666]

17 hours ago, Hiob said:

Cyclic left and trim…. pushing right is normal for this helicopter.

Helicopter flying is so satisfying to me, because you have to fly it all the time and balance so many inputs. It’s hard, but once you managed it, it’s very rewarding.

I can’t imagine doing it without proper pedals though. Some use twist axis or even the keyboard, but I find pedals the only thing manageable for me.

Oh man the pedals!
I previously had the "Thrustmaster TFRP - Rudder Pedals for PC" and it was an ABSOLUTE nightmare.
It was simply not possible to make the small adjustments that Apache requires to fly straight.
Even if I oiled the part before each flight, it still wasn't smooth and frictionless enough to control the bird.
I've already started to doubt my abilities.
Then I switched to "VKB-SIM T-RUDDER PEDALS MK.IV" and it was like someone gave me a whole new module.
Suddenly the helicopter did what I wanted and e.g. hovering was really easy compared to before.....

Long story short, I firmly believe that the rudder pedals are the most important input device for the Apache at the moment. Stick and throttle also go in the low or medium price range. But with rudder it has to be premium... Unfortunately... Because that still hurts my wallet a bit...

[Lurker]

On 9/30/2022 at 4:15 PM, Dominator said:

 

Also I do not have rudder pedals.

 

Attempting to fly without rudder pedals is extremely difficult, however it is not impossible. AFAIK Wags is known to use rocking paddles on his HOTAS to control rudders and he is very, very proficient with them. 

[palerider37]

As an US Army AH-64 tech for over 25 years, I was lucky enough to get opportunities to fly the AH-64A/D/E simulator from time to time. For a full year in 2012, I was lucky enough to work daily with the simulator team in Bagram Afghanistan. That year I logged well over 1000 hours flying the AH-64D in every “digital” environment possible. Days that pilots were present, it was a hands-on masterclass in operating the AH-64D, and when they weren't, it was my own personal “XBOX”... With that, I humbly submit to you my judgment for discussion.

 

I am however unable to provide tangible evidence of my review.  I'm not a test pilot and can't explain inertia and turn rate in a manner that would assist others.  Not to mention my experience in the simulator was 10 years ago and now I only get to fly it 1-2 times a year.

 

Pilotos and Apache pilots of DCS, what say you?

 

(video for context)

(83) AH-64 Apache Helicopter Simulator - YouTube

[speed-of-heat]

thanks for your service, so you are saying that the FM could be improved... but not bad... 

[fapador]

 

22 minutes ago, palerider37 said:

As an US Army AH-64 tech for over 25 years, I was lucky enough to get opportunities to fly the AH-64A/D/E simulator from time to time. For a full year in 2012, I was lucky enough to work daily with the simulator team in Bagram Afghanistan. That year I logged well over 1000 hours flying the AH-64D in every “digital” environment possible. Days that pilots were present, it was a hands-on masterclass in operating the AH-64D, and when they weren't, it was my own personal “XBOX”... With that, I humbly submit to you my judgment for discussion.

 

I am however unable to provide tangible evidence of my review.  I'm not a test pilot and can't explain inertia and turn rate in a manner that would assist others.  Not to mention my experience in the simulator was 10 years ago and now I only get to fly it 1-2 times a year.

 

Pilotos and Apache pilots of DCS, what say you?

 

(video for context)

Wow!

 

[BIGNEWY]

22 minutes ago, palerider37 said:

As an US Army AH-64 tech for over 25 years, I was lucky enough to get opportunities to fly the AH-64A/D/E simulator from time to time. For a full year in 2012, I was lucky enough to work daily with the simulator team in Bagram Afghanistan. That year I logged well over 1000 hours flying the AH-64D in every “digital” environment possible. Days that pilots were present, it was a hands-on masterclass in operating the AH-64D, and when they weren't, it was my own personal “XBOX”... With that, I humbly submit to you my judgment for discussion.

 

I am however unable to provide tangible evidence of my review.  I'm not a test pilot and can't explain inertia and turn rate in a manner that would assist others.  Not to mention my experience in the simulator was 10 years ago and now I only get to fly it 1-2 times a year.

 

Pilotos and Apache pilots of DCS, what say you?

 

(video for context)

(83) AH-64 Apache Helicopter Simulator - YouTube

Thank you for the feedback. 

Flight model is still in development and we have more work to come during early access. 

[Lurker]

B+ is pretty good for a WIP FM. With that said IMO the FM is the single most important element of a simulation, but it's only one part of the whole package. Others might feel that systems modeling or weapons modeling or graphics or whatever trump the flight modeling, but to me the FM is where it's at with DCS World. If you get that close enough, everything else is just gravy on top. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Lurker

[TZeer]

I haven't flown the Apache for a while, and currently at work, so will have to wait a bit until I get the chance.

But I'm very curious if they have been able to remove some of the bugs I reported back in August.

According to Raptor9 all my observations had already been reported by the SME's.

 

 

[poochies]

I’ve thrown my hotas aside and using keyboard works much better can actually move where I want and hover perfectly but still get knocked over by what seems a random large gust of wind usually when lasing a target and firing hellfire I get the saturation tone it’s very annoying I disconnect attitude hold and settle her down then put in Att hold again 

[FlyBaby]

I have set this bird to the side for a few months now. I hope they get it right soon.

The UH-1H and KA-50 are so much fun to fly and enjoy their different characteristics...gives me hope that eventually they will get there with the Apache.

[Bagpipe]

Right now, I cannot have the AP hold a stable hover in the slightest of breezes. I can sit for a few moments and all seems well but then when I am heads down inputting coordinates etc I all of a sudden VRS into the ground. Happens every time I fly the Apache which lately has been less and less. Really upsetting. Fingers crossed for better performance going forward