A Mirage 2000-5F for DCS?

[Thinder]

SMR Simulation Massive en Reseau. Massive Network Simulation.

We all know that RAZBAM and the French Air Force have been collaborating on the Mirage 2000C module which French Squadron are using for PC-based traning at Squadron level.

According to this video, they expect a Mirage 2000-5F around Summer 2020, meaning it could be already in operation with AdlA.

Now, weither we're gonna see it landing in DCS I couldn't say but the module exists, I don't think AdlA worked with a different company than RAZBAM for its development and it should be possible to develop a nerfed version for DCS.

Personally I'll welcome the module IF and when it come, what say you?

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thinder

[=36=Witcher]

From the RAZBAM Discord Channel Topic:

Cita

Mirage 2000-5, B, D, N , -9 or -H not planned at the moment.

I think it's at least 18 months that this statement is in the Channel Topic.

As for my personal opinion, I honestly don't care about an AA only module. Just not my style, I like a bit of everything, AG included.

Edited October 26, 2022 by =36=Witcher

[Bremspropeller]

A 2000-5F would be very cool (I'd throw money at it), but I'd actually prefer a 2000D with all the bells and whistles.

[cmbaviator]

36 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

A 2000-5F would be very cool (I'd throw money at it), but I'd actually prefer a 2000D with all the bells and whistles.

avioniuc wise its the same aircrarf i think

[Kercheiz]

53 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

avioniuc wise its the same aircrarf i think

There are twice the number of seats, so no

And besides, even considering front seat only, the avionic is about 99% different

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

avioniuc wise its the same aircrarf i think

Not at all.

The 5F is half way between the C and the Rafale, it is equiped with a Modular Computer Unit similar to that of the Rafale, fully upgradable with tons more computing power than the C/D/N, so all avionic including ECM can not only be more powerful but also a lot faster and with a margin for upgrade, because the computing power is there.

The radar is way more advanced than the C, to the point where they are not afraid of most NATO aircrafts, they can fire BWR both IR and EM while scanning (Track While Scan) which is a capability they had before most other western fighters, no lock, no warning.

They didn't upgrade them becaause of the Rafale programme but it is certainly more capable than the C and N, as for the B. it has the same avionic than the C and no guns, it is only used for training.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thinder

[cmbaviator]

33 minutes ago, Thinder said:

Not at all.

The 5F is half way between the C and the Rafale, it is equiped with a Modular Computer Unit similar to that of the Rafale, fully upgradable with tons more computing power than the C/D/N, so all avionic including ECM can not only be more powerful but also a lot faster and with a margin for upgrade, because the computing power is there.

The radar is way more advanced than the C, to the point where they are not afraid of most NATO aircrafts, they can fire BWR both IR and EM while scanning (Track While Scan) which is a capability they had before most other western fighters, no lock, no warning.

They didn't upgrade them becaause of the Rafale programme but it is certainly more capable than the C and N, as for the D. it has the same avionic than the C and no guns, it is only used for training.

 

 

 

thanks but the D is a bit more modern

null

[Thinder]

35 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

thanks but the D is a bit more modern

null

That's not a D but a twin seat variant of the 5, an export version not in use in AdlA, and there are other export variants with this sort of avionic upgrade, not truely AdlA Ds.

Here is an AdlA 2000B cockpit, I typoed the D for B and I specified its training role, the photo is dated from 2010 and I don't think they saw any upgrade since.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thinder

[Thinder]

 

[Major_Shepard]

Mirage 2000D are currently being upgraded to stay in service until 2035. It should be the same for 2000-5 as the Greek ones are being upgraded.

Do not expect to see any Mirage 2000-5 or 2000D in DCS until they get close to retiring.

 

[Thinder]

1 hour ago, Major_Shepard said:

Mirage 2000D are currently being upgraded to stay in service until 2035. It should be the same for 2000-5 as the Greek ones are being upgraded.

Normaly, if I need this sort of informations they are available first hand in theh RAPPORT D’INFORMATION from the ASSEMBLÉE NATIONALE, of course to have details about thee aircrafts you'll need to get to the right report where the mention is made for reasons of a decision made either for the upgrade or budget.

At the moment, the emphasis is on what is needed to meet high intensity conflicts, solutions range from upgrades to increased in "format" or size/number of assets.

préparation à la haute intensité

Noticable, the Rafale comes top of prioriies because of the uncertainties about the SCAF programme, then the Carrier, then heavy assets of the army.

If the  upgrades are not listed here (17th feb 2022) it doesn't mean they are not in the pipeline or already funded, only not top priorities for those reasons, the document mentions renovation rather than upgrade but also the retirement of the Mirage 2000N.

Quote

Do not expect to see any Mirage 2000-5 or 2000D in DCS until they get close to retiring.

This have been my assessment for years, but the problem is the age of the 2000-5 airframes and the fact that renovation/upgrade of a 2000C would cost half of the aircraft itself, most probably no RDY, thus no LAM (mid course guidance from taircraft to missile), so MICA EM BWR only.

In the frame of renovation, the 2000D is quoted with first delivery this year end, but nothing about the 2000-5F, in my opinion, because of the short life span of their airframe and the priority given to Rafale which is a much more capable platform.

Considering that the "format" for 2025 will be considerably reduced (to 185), chances are the 2000-5F are next on the sh!t list, they are closer to retirement than you may think.

Note, Rafale also has priority for AdlA when it comes to counter the trend toward reduction of number of assets...

Quote

At a time when war is hitting Europe and when international tensions are very high, the Air Force pleads for an increase in the Rafale Air fleet. According to the number two of the Air Force, France should aim for 225 Rafale Air instead of a floor of 185 aircraft. In the meantime, it is requesting confirmation in 2023 of a new order for 42 Rafales, delivered between 2027 and 2030.

L'armée de l'air plaide pour bénéficier d'une flotte de 225 Rafale (au lieu de 185)

From this article you can deduce two things, Rafale is bound to be the only aircraft in service with AdlA at least in the view of the Air force, replacing all types of Mirages in the short to mid-term, the floor of 185 aircrafts is within a composite force (Rafale/Mirage 2000).

Dates are 2027 and 2030 and Mirage 2000N then 2000-5F will be retired within this period of time.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thinder

[Major_Shepard]

The mirage 2000-5 have the advantage over Rafale to be cheaper in daily usage when it comes to do Police du Ciel in France (=non aggressive environment)

Reason why M2000C where still in use in Ada even after the removal of S530D missile.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Major_Shepard

[Thinder]

45 minutes ago, Major_Shepard said:

The mirage 2000-5 have the advantage over Rafale to be cheaper in daily usage when it comes to do Police du Ciel in France (=non aggressive environment)

Reason why M2000C where still in use in Ada even after the removal of S530D missile.

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that for the same reason that they're certainly second in the list for retirement, 1) obsolescence, 2) airframe fatigue, they all are upgraded from existing Mirage 2000C dating from 1993, not new aircrafts, there were only 37 of them meaning parts are now more difficult to obtain due to their initial low  number and attrition, this reduces availability and increases cost.

MICA entered service in 1996, most Mirage airframes still had a relatively long lifespan then from deliveries to AdlA in 1983, if they kept the 2000C, it is because even without the Super 530D it was still relevant to them and it was due to be replaced by Rafale in the mid term then... We all know what happened.

AdlA just retired an entire Mirage 2000C squadron after closing BA-102 Dijon where I served servicing Mirage IIIE weapons, the base was the home of the only air superiority squadron, escadron de chasse 1/2 Cigognes, which is significant, then the first 2000N are going as well, this plus the fact that AdlA leaderships are calling for increased Rafale procurment give us a clue...

btw, even the Mirage CR were doing Police du ciel until retirement in 2014.

retrait de service du Mirage 2000C RDI

Edited October 26, 2022 by Thinder

[Biggus]

For what little it is worth, I'd buy a 2000-5F day 1.

[Thinder]

9 minutes ago, Biggus said:

For what little it is worth, I'd buy a 2000-5F day 1.

Yes me too, but first the Mirage F1.

IF we're lucky to have a 5F in a few years, it will put it on par with the Viper and hornet in BWR which is the weak point of the 2000C in this game...

[Bremspropeller]

Lots of great info, thanks @Thinder

[Kev2go]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:16 AM, =36=Witcher said:

From the RAZBAM Discord Channel Topic:

I think it's at least 18 months that this statement is in the Channel Topic.

As for my personal opinion, I honestly don't care about an AA only module. Just not my style, I like a bit of everything, AG included.

 

The Mirage 2000C's air to ground capabilities aren't much to begin with. only dumb munitions or being a laser bomb truck for buddy lasing. even F16A would of been more flexible in the A/G department( mavericks aside) because you can choose your preffered method of delivery, CCIP or CCRP, or using navigation or radar based bombing.

I like multirole aircraft as much as the next guy but there are some Mostly a2a ( or even entirely pure A2A) fighters that i would consider buying like the F15C . M2000-5F, and especially Eurofighter ( well at least the luftwaffe version is pure a2a) 

That is unless Razbam could get documentation on one of the export based Mirage 2000-5 Mk2's that are used for "multirole" purposes, but i would very much support a M2000-5F.

[=36=Witcher]

16 ore fa, Kev2go ha scritto:

The Mirage 2000C's air to ground capabilities aren't much to begin with. only dumb munitions or being a laser bomb truck for buddy lasing. even F16A would of been more flexible in the A/G department( mavericks aside) because you can choose your preffered method of delivery, CCIP or CCRP, or using navigation or radar based bombing.

Absolutely true, I wasn't trying to say that the M2KC is specifically crafted for A2G. In fact is an 80s interceptor that has been retrofitted to A/G as well, so it's obvious that it has its limitations.

16 ore fa, Kev2go ha scritto:

I like multirole aircraft as much as the next guy but there are some Mostly a2a ( or even entirely pure A2A) fighters that i would consider buying like the F15C . M2000-5F, and especially Eurofighter ( well at least the luftwaffe version is pure a2a) 

Of course, to each their own. I just expressed my opinion, everyone is more than welcome to have their own.

16 ore fa, Kev2go ha scritto:

That is unless Razbam could get documentation on one of the export based Mirage 2000-5 Mk2's that are used for "multirole" purposes, but i would very much support a M2000-5F.

It's not a matter of what to support or not. It's a matter of fact that it's been at least 18 months (but only because I'm being extremely conservative here, since I can't really remember) that Razbam is telling us that it's not planned. The topic has been debated so many times they even put this disclaimer as the topic of the M2KC channel in their Discord server. I was just pointing this out (with a bit of fustration for having heard this over and over, I admit), not making any assumptions on what Razbam should or shouldn't do, or what DCS users should or shouldn't like. 

[Kev2go]

4 hours ago, =36=Witcher said:

Absolutely true, I wasn't trying to say that the M2KC is specifically crafted for A2G. In fact is an 80s interceptor that has been retrofitted to A/G as well, so it's obvious that it has its limitations.

Of course, to each their own. I just expressed my opinion, everyone is more than welcome to have their own.

It's not a matter of what to support or not. It's a matter of fact that it's been at least 18 months (but only because I'm being extremely conservative here, since I can't really remember) that Razbam is telling us that it's not planned. The topic has been debated so many times they even put this disclaimer as the topic of the M2KC channel in their Discord server. I was just pointing this out (with a bit of fustration for having heard this over and over, I admit), not making any assumptions on what Razbam should or shouldn't do, or what DCS users should or shouldn't like. 

yes i am aware razbam has stated they have no plans anymore for the 2000-5F.

 

that was never the point, but to demonstrate there is still strong interest from the community in a 2000-5F even if its still not multirole, including from people like myself who otherwise are very much multirole fans.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Kev2go

[=36=Witcher]

15 ore fa, Kev2go ha scritto:

yes i am aware razbam has stated they have no plans anymore for the 2000-5F.

 

that was never the point, but to demonstrate there is still strong interest from the community in a 2000-5F even if its still not multirole, including from people like myself who otherwise are very much multirole fans.

 

Again, I never said there's no interest, and I think RAZBAM knows well too, or they wouldn't have put that disclaimer.

[Delta-canard]

This is all purely theoretical since they said they weren't making any new variant but I think I'd go for an export variant, c either the new and shiny 2000-5Mk2 or even the old - H that got specialized in precision strike in Indian AF. As this is not happening... Just give us the Étendard!

 

Sidenote, even if rhey are not allowed to release it to the public, I'd be curious to have a confirmation that a military-only DCS - 5 exists. I guess it does, what would be the point of the 2000C sim for the AdA since their final retirement?

[kotor633]

We have the Mirage F1 & Mirage 2000C. Both modules are incredibly fun. And where someone can be deeply captivated. At least that's how I feel. A Mirage 2000-5F would be the crowning glory!

Edited January 16, 2023 by kotor633

[Eisprinzessin]

A bit more AA capability would be nice...without questioning...

[Mermoz]

On 10/26/2022 at 10:01 PM, Thinder said:

Not at all.

The 5F is half way between the C and the Rafale, it is equiped with a Modular Computer Unit similar to that of the Rafale, fully upgradable with tons more computing power than the C/D/N, so all avionic including ECM can not only be more powerful but also a lot faster and with a margin for upgrade, because the computing power is there.

 

okay for the Mirage 2000 variants it was this way :

 

Mirage 2000C is the first single seat variant used by the French Air Force

Mirage 2000B is the two seat version of the the 2000C. 

Mirage 2000-5 is the modernised version of the C with MCU, indeed an earlier version of what was in the first Rafale variant (we are reaching the 4th variant of the rafale now)

Mirage 2000D is the two seat version of the 2000-5 therefore has the same avionic although it is more aimed at bombing

Mirage 2000N is a very specific version of the D... it has one and only one mission... deliver the french nuclear bomb. (the N stands for Nuclear variant)

Mirage 2000-9 is a more advanced variant made only to be exported when Dassault could not export Rafale. I think only the Emirates have it but I'm not sure. The avionic is the Dassault Electronic not the Thales version.

And considering how the first Thomson (previous name ofThales) version of the Mirage 2000C Radar got its nickname of "Tefal"... I'm not sure the Thales is the best of the lot

(The 2000C radar got dubbed Tefal - a special brand of teflon coated skillet we have in France in which food doesn't stick and has for motto "Tefal heats up but doesn't stick" - because on the first radar tracking tests made by the French Air Force testing team, the Test pilot had the target in visual range while the radar could still not get a lock and worse was overheating... basically it was heating up but did not stick... the story probably got a bit embellished with the years, but according to a member of my family who was on the Dassault representative team on that day... the test pilot was livid with rage when he talked to the Thomson representatives.)

 

now if they could do the -5, I'd love it too, the -5 is the one who can shoot the French Fox 3 equivalent, the Charlie is only able to shoot the 530. however, the Charlies been decomissionned, the -5 still are on active duty and use similar armement as Rafale, so I doubt we'll see accurate representation in DCS, not with the security around thier data

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mermoz

[nick10]

It’s the prettiest module I reckon.

an upgraded cockpit with the dash 5 would be sublime