MFCD visibility issue due to SRGB being enabled in 2.8

[ColinM9991]

Update 11/07/2023

I asked the dev team directly whether this was an intentional change, which they've confirmed is the case. sRGB was added to the A-10C in 2.8 as an improvement since the text was over-saturated in previous versions. Since this has had a detrimental impact to the readability of text, I've asked if they could potentially increase the thickness of the harder to read text; they've said they'll take it into consideration.

Why the community managers couldn't put these questions forward, since that's ultimately the job of a community manager, and why I had to reach out directly are two things I'll never understand with bug reports on DCS..

 

Note: Issue and temporary fix identified.

Skip ahead to the following comment. The issue is caused by input_space_SRGB which was added and enabled to the MFCD displays in 2.8. This makes the text lighter due to having less colour space available. This change remains to be undocumented in any changelogs nor has any developer or ED Team member confirmed that the change is intentional.

Original Post

Please read this comment in it's entirety so you don't make a suggestion that has alread been tried.

Raised this on Discord but figured the forum is the best place for it.

There's a degradation in the quality of the MFVCD text in 2.8 which isn't a problem on 2.7. No graphics or MFCD settings were changed between screenshots.

While there isn't a great difference in 2D, they are pretty unreadable in VR for the A-10C II unless you use the VR Zoom binding.

I've taken 8 pictures in total, 4 from v2.7 and 4 from v2.8 that cycle through each MFCD page in the A-10C II.

 

So far, the following steps have been performed as an attempt to resolve the issue. None have yielded a successful result:

• Repairing the game
• Reinstalling the game, manually verifying that the DCS game directory was entirely removed prior to reinstalling.
• Deleting the DCS directory from Saved Games, to start with a clean slate
• Deleting FXO and Metashaders (I perform this after every update, naturally)
• Tested on 2.7 and 2.8 with no graphical or setting changes, to demonstrate the issue being present only in 2.8 and onwards.
• Adjusted Resolution of Cockpit Displays to various values
• Adjusted brightness values as you've mentioned above. Several other users have provided their results in this thread too, the displays can't be returned to their original 2.7 brightness.
• Haven't changed any Nvidia Control Panel settings and I'm loath to do so as the A-10C & A-10CII are the only aircraft with this issue. So I'm of the opinion that this isn't related to anything external of DCS, but happy to be corrected there with tangible evidence.

 

Excuse the double post. Here are the next 4 pictures from 2.8. It becomes really noticeable in the last 2 pictures for 2.7 & 2.8.

Edited July 11, 2023 by ColinM9991

[Hive]

At least from the normal head position, I have problems to differentiate the letters next to markpoints for example. If I move my head closer, everything is very sharp and clearly readbale, but it is very recognizable that text and symbology look a little different now.

Please have a look with day- and night setting for the MFCDS. Is it worse for you, too?

[Convexrook]

This is correct I can confirm symbology is very hard to see in the A-10C II in VR that is

[icemaker]

Same here

[Hive]

Thanks for your replies!

@NineLine I don't know if you consider this a bug (then please move this thread to the bugs section), but would you be so nice to inform the devs about it in any case? Readability is already problematic in VR so I think it shouldn't be made any harder intentionally (and I have a good headset with G2 on 110% resolution). This issue might apply to other jets as well.

EDIT: I usually don't play on monitor, but even here the MFCDs seem harder to read.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Hive

[Snoopy]

Reverb G2 and I have no issues reading them.

[Hive]

1 hour ago, Snoopy said:

Reverb G2 and I have no issues reading them.

Interesting. Do you see a change at all or is everything like before 2.8 for you? What's your resolution?

Edited November 1, 2022 by Hive

[BIGNEWY]

Thanks 

I will mention it to the team, as mentioned in discord I had not noticed a problem in the G2 maybe resolution makes a difference here 

maybe aliasing settings can you let me know your dcs settings and nvidia / amd settings for aliasing

 

[ColinM9991]

VR settings as requested

 null Have also attached my Nvidia Control Panel 3D settings but should mention that I haven't changed anything here in the past, that I can remember, nor have I defined any per-application settings.

Additionally, I've included my options.lua too.

options.lua

[ColinM9991]

Apologies for the spam. One more screenshot which is a direct comparison between the MAV page in 2.7 and 2.8 where you can see less font weight in 2.8. So not glowing as much as 2.7 and smaller text size

.

[Clint]

+1 here the MFCDs seems to be more... blurry some how, or at least the text you need to get really close to make out the text, don't know how to explain it..

I'm currently on 250% resolution scaling in steamVR and using VR-mod app with 80% FSR render scale.. it looked fine in DCS 2.7 but now i feel its harder to read.

[BIGNEWY]

I wonder if the custom resolutions are playing a part here. 

I am using the G2 1.0 PD in DCS and 100% res in the headset itself 

[ColinM9991]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I wonder if the custom resolutions are playing a part here. 

I am using the G2 1.0 PD in DCS and 100% res in the headset itself 

I wondered if it was exclusive to VR and, admittedly, when I first took screenshots in VR I deemed them to be too poor in quality to show a difference since it was very hard to see the cockpit.

The screenshots above, and where I do a direct comparison, are in 2D running 3440x1440 on the High preset with 2x MSAA. Notice how in 2.8 text has less glow around it and it's a slightly darker, more vibrant green. The RWR and other systems are unaffected. As the differences appear in 2D, I don't think it has much to do with VR settings. The main problem in VR is the knock-on effect of text being harder to read.

Between switching branches (Stable & OB), no graphical or resolution settings were changed, to reduce as many factors as possible, and I stuck with 2D in both tests after I noticed first in VR that it had become more difficult to read the MFDs whilst sitting back.

 

FWIW, I'm also using PD 1.0 but running OpenComposite so the G2 is at its native resolution (50% of what Steam VR Resolution is typically at).

Edited November 2, 2022 by ColinM9991

[BuzzU]

It looks the same for me but I look close all the time. I use the zoom on a button and then can look a bit closer with Trackir 5.

At home, i'm called the Old Mountain Man. In DCS i'm called the Old Blind Man.

[ColinM9991]

I wonder if this has to do with reflections on the MFD. I've attached two new pictures from the latest patch (recently released).

It looks like the MFDs, when flying through clouds (second pic), looks somewhat clearer though still very different to how they looked in 2.7.

Shortly after, I emerge from the clouds (first pic) and the text becomes somewhat darker and thinner again.

Edited November 2, 2022 by ColinM9991

[jaylw314]

I noticed this too.  When I lean forwards, the MFCD's suddenly become more clear.  After clearing shaders, it seemed like it was better, but it might have been my imagination.

[zberry7]

Yes! I reverted back to stable because of it, and the difference is VERY noticeable. I’ve been looking around to see if a bug report was submitted, because I don’t have the time to myself.

 

But I did back to back testing between 2.7 and 2.8 (identical settings) and in 2.8 the lines on the MFDs appear thinner, more jagged, blurry and hard to read. In 2.8 I couldn’t even make heads or tails of the TAD page. After reverting to stable, I could immediately notice a substantial difference, I no longer needed to zoom in to make out the TAD. 
 

For me, the MFDs were already difficult to read compared to other jets, this update made them unusable without zooming every time. It’s nearly game-breaking for me, which is why I reverted back to 2.7

If anyone else had any luck with solving the issue please let me know, I haven’t tried clearing caches or anything, I don’t really want to update to 2.8 until I know I can fix the issue. 

[Hive]

Somebody reported the problem on discord with Screenshots.

[Hive]

I recently posted it on the A-10c II forum, too.

Reverb G2, 110 % resolution, PD 1.0, MSAA 2x, nVidia Control Panel standard settings, OpenXR

[ColinM9991]

For reference

 

[Griefhard]

Have the same issue. Using Valve Index and readability in the A10C II is not fantastic either way, but has gotten worse since 2.8.x

[zberry7]

I also posted about this in another thread but the issue for me is much more noticeable than it is in those screenshots.

For reference im running the Quest 2, resolution set to 1.4x in the Oculus App, 1.0 in DCS. I had both MSAA and conventional AA enabled when I was running 2.8, after reverting to 2.7 with no settings changed it was immediately noticeable. 
 

I didn’t play around with settings enough, because I actually wanted to be able to see the screens so I just reverted to stable. But for me, thin lines are totally eaten into by the black background, and the thicker lines look thin, everything is dull. I agree it looks like an anti-aliasing algorithm getting angry and just dulling everything, and since it fixes when zoomed in, it’s obviously resolution dependent. Maybe some changes to the rendering of the cockpit are the cause, just speculating of course, but it’s strange that this is only being reported in the A-10C II

 

Normally, the details on the screens are already small and difficult to read because of the limitations of VR, but this just makes it so I can’t even make out larger details like my flight plan on the TAD, etc.. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by zberry7

[ColinM9991]

1 hour ago, zberry7 said:

the issue for me is much more noticeable than it is in those screenshots.

Bear in mind I took these screenshots in 2D to show that the issue is not limited exclusively to VR, as demonstrated in the comparison photo above. Certainly, the readability is impacted in VR but I don't believe this to be solely a VR issue.

Something has changed with the MFDs, or the font weight on the MFDs, that impacts both 2D and VR. As you say, it's harder to see in VR due to resolution, pixel density and general VR limitations. The STAT page is by far the worst with multiple colors that bleed into one another.

 

Maybe both of these threads should be merged. I raised it here initially as I thought it was wider than the A-10C II but it does seem that's the only affected module at the moment.

[jaylw314]

I turned up the SYM brightness to max during daytime and it seems to help.  I also noticed the night MFCD setting appears to be significantly dimmer.  I wonder if this due to the lighting revamp?

[Snoopy]

On 11/1/2022 at 9:16 AM, Hive said:

Interesting. Do you see a change at all or is everything like before 2.8 for you? What's your resolution?

 

Maybe the text is slightly thinner but not at the detriment of me being able to read them.