need track replay JDAMs dual rack - 4 bombs - 3 targets destroyed !?!

[vctpil]

Hi,

I tried several times to use 2 x dual rack of JDAMs against 4 targets and all I can do is to kill 3 targets only.

So, I double and even triple check coordinates and elevation, pay a particular attention to which PPx and station is programmed.

I tried to release from PP1 first then PP2. After that PP2 first then PP1. I also watched several tutorials on youtube.

All I tried have the same result, one of the bomb is always going to a coordinates of another bomb, with the result of 3 targets killed for 4 bombs.

The bombs are always released 2 by 2.

It is a known bug or there something I really don't understand?

Thanks,

Vincent

PS : track is too huge for the forum.

Edited October 31, 2022 by vctpil
more infos

[BIGNEWY]

please reproduce in a short as possible track, use air start  single player mission with just the hornet and the targets and it will be a short track then.

when I have been testing all is working for me, all bombs go to the targets I designated. 

[vctpil]

iTrack and screenshot attached. Targets was quite far from each others, but 2 bombs are going to the same point. Still 2 x dual rack of 2 bombs on STA 3 and 7.

If I miss something, I really don't understand what is it.

Thanks for your help.

Test JDAMs..trk

Edited October 31, 2022 by vctpil

[Phantom711]

@vctpil

 

My guess would be, that you switch to the other PP (i.e. from PP1 to PP2) only once, but you have to switch it for BOTH pylons! 
That‘s why one bomb of your second release goes to the 3rd target as you intended and the other one goes to the same target again as in the first pass.

[vctpil]

On 10/21/2022 at 10:32 PM, Str][ker said:

I have reproduced this issue multiple times and I created a video to illustrate what I see each time. I will link the video once I get it finalized and posted via an unlisted Youtube Link. This is against static targets (in my test mission I used static ground vehicles) which will not move once there are impacts near them.

1. Load of 8 x 500lb JDAMs 2 each per rack. All are set to TOO. All have fuse set. All are aligned.
2. First rack - TOO1 - assign to target 1 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 2. Press Step to next rack.
3. Next rack - TOO1 - assign to target 3 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 4. Press Step to next rack.
4. Next rack - TOO1 - assign to target 5 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 6. Press Step to next rack.
5. Next rack - TOO1 - assign to target 7 using TDC and FLIR. Next, select TOO2, assign to target 8.
6. Press Return and the QTY button. I select all 4 weapon stations. This will drop all 4 with a single press and hold of the weapon release button for the selected TOO group. (note: it is important to only select the quantity AFTER assigning each JDAM to its target.  Selecting all first will result in all weapons sharing the same target (whichever is last assigned))
7. I have manually stepped through each rack and both TOO1/TOO2 to verify the targets (using active pause). All are assigned properly. 
8. With TOO1 (or TOO2) selected, I press and hold the weapon release until all 4 bombs are away. I then press TOO2 (or TOO1) and press and hold the weapon release until the last 4 bombs are away.
9. Observing the impacts, I am always hitting 5 targets and missing 3. The 3 bombs which miss their assigned target instead hit the other targets. The specific targets missed seem to vary for reasons unknown. This is 100% repeatable.

I have used this method in the past to drop 8 weapons on 8 stationary targets without issue. JDAMs should each retain their respective target and not pick up a target assigned to another weapon. All JDAMS have their targets assigned in an identical manner and some work while others don't. This should not happen.

 

I just follow this post indicating that the QTY must be selected after having programming the JDAM, but I still have three3 targets destroyed for 4 bombs.

15 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

@vctpil

 

My guess would be, that you switch to the other PP (i.e. from PP1 to PP2) only once, but you have to switch it for BOTH pylons! 
That‘s why one bomb of your second release goes to the 3rd target as you intended and the other one goes to the same target again as in the first pass.

May I suppose that all bombs are release per PPx? In my opinion, this is not logical to manually switch between PPx and STA for each bombs. But maybe my logic is not the same as the JDAM system.

[vctpil]

I just made another test with one bomb for SAT 2, 3, 7 and 8 (no dual rack), all programmed in PP1. Each bombs are going their assigned target (4 targets destroyed)

[vctpil]

One more test with one bomb per STA 2, 3, 7 and 8 with PP as follow :

PP1/STA8

PP1/STA2

PP2/STA7

PP2/STA3

I push and hold the weapon release button for the first program, release it, then push and hold the weapon release button for the second program. I did not select manually the next PP.

Each bombs are flying to their assigned target.

 

[Harker]

One more test with one bomb per STA 2, 3, 7 and 8 with PP as follow :
PP1/STA8
PP1/STA2
PP2/STA7
PP2/STA3
I push and hold the weapon release button for the first program, release it, then push and hold the weapon release button for the second program. I did not select manually the next PP.
Each bombs are flying to their assigned target.
 

That sounds normal, PP and TOO coordinates are station-specific. PP1/STA8 and PP1/STA2 are separate, for example.

So, if I understand correctly, you programmed the four stations separately, selected the PP# you wanted for each station and then pickled one bomb from each station, which guided to the coordinates listed in its PP target upon release.

If the above is what happened, then it behaves correctly.

[vctpil]

2 hours ago, Harker said:

That sounds normal, PP and TOO coordinates are station-specific. PP1/STA8 and PP1/STA2 are separate, for example.

So, if I understand correctly, you programmed the four stations separately, selected the PP# you wanted for each station and then pickled one bomb from each station, which guided to the coordinates listed in its PP target upon release.

If the above is what happened, then it behaves correctly.

In the case there is a bomb per station, it work as is supposed to be.

The problem occurs when I am using dual rack.

[Spectre VCAW-1]

Not sure I caught it all, but it seemed for the first drop, it seemed you dropped PP2 for Sta7 and PP1 for Sta3, and the second released Was PP1 for Sta7 and still PP1 for Sta3. Note the selection of PP1, PP2 etc is also per station, you can drop PP1 for one station and PP2 for another at the same time.

[Phantom711]

@vctpil

You program the PPx for each STA. If you are using Dual Rack, both bombs are programmed to the same PP. 
So this is exactly what I mean…you can program PP1 and PP2 (or more) to each station, but for one pickle you can only serve 2 targets if you habe 2 dual racks loaded, then you switch each STA to the other PP and pickle again (assuming you were quick enough and are still in LAR).

 

Example:

you have 4 targets in close vicinity of each other (i.e. aircraft shelters). We call them TGT 1, TGT 2, TGT 3 and TGT 4.

You have a dual rack on STA 3 and STA 7.

You program STA 3:

PP1=TGT 1

PP2=TGT 2

When done, select PP1 again on the top row.

STEP to STA 7 and program:

PP1= TGT 3

PP2= TGT 4

When done, select PP1 again on the top row.

As QTY select STA 3 and STA 7 on the right row.

Fly to the tgt area. When IN ZONE push the weapons release button (pickle). Watch TGT 1 and 3 get hit.

Go into the JDAM MSN menu again and select PP2 on STA 3. Push STEP and select PP2 on STA 7 as well. 
If you are still IN ZONE, just pickle again….if not, just set yourself up for another pass.

In any case the second 2 bombs should go to to TGT 2 and 4.

I just tried it in TOO, because it is a pain in the butt to program coordinates in VR…but the functionality is the same after all.

EDIT: Had the targets mixed up. Fixed.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Phantom711

[Phantom711]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb vctpil:

May I suppose that all bombs are release per PPx? In my opinion, this is not logical to manually switch between PPx and STA for each bombs. But maybe my logic is not the same as the JDAM system.

You seem to be confused about what PP1, PP2 etc really means. It is nothing more than a Preplanned Target for that particular station. So for each station you can program up to 5 possible targets.

Now lets just assume, that you have 1 JDAM an each station (STA 2, STA 3, STA 7 and STA 8). You can now program 5 different coordinates on each station…so theoretically up to 20 different targets. Whichever PPx you have selected (boxed) for the respective station will be the target the JDAM will go for when selected for the next attack. If you just want to attack one target, you just STEP to the station you want to drop and box the PP that represents the target you want to attack. So if you had programmed the control tower of the enemy airfield in PP3 of STA 7 then you just step to STA 7 and box PP3. Fly yourself into the launch zone and pickle. But thats boring…

We want to drop all 4 bombs on some specific buildings of the enemy airfield. (Assuming they are in relative close proximity and you can be in launch parameters for all 4 at the same time). You can match the stations and PP absolutely randomly… you can choose STA 2-PP5, STA 3- PP1, STA 7-PP2 and STA 8-PP5. (Note that PP5 of STA 2 is a different target than the one from STA 8 since all PP are programmed individually for each STA).

As QTY we select all 4 stations. When on attack heading we step through the stations and look at our HSI in order to select the LAR that is farthest away so that we are definitely IN ZONE for all 4 bombs at pickle. And that‘s what we will do…

You seemed to be under the impression, that all stations with PP1 will drop first and then all stations with PP2…or something like that. Not the case.

As mentioned in my previous post, dual racks are a bit special, since with regards to programming, the 2 bombs of the dual rack are treated like one. 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Phantom711

[vctpil]

13 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

@vctpil

You program the PPx for each STA. If you are using Dual Rack, both bombs are programmed to the same PP. 
So this is exactly what I mean…you can program PP1 and PP2 (or more) to each station, but for one pickle you can only serve 2 targets if you habe 2 dual racks loaded, then you switch each STA to the other PP and pickle again (assuming you were quick enough and are still in LAR).

 

Example:

you have 4 targets in close vicinity of each other (i.e. aircraft shelters). We call them TGT 1, TGT 2, TGT 3 and TGT 4.

You have a dual rack on STA 3 and STA 7.

You program STA 3:

PP1=TGT 1

PP2=TGT 2

When done, select PP1 again on the top row.

STEP to STA 7 and program:

PP1= TGT 3

PP2= TGT 4

When done, select PP1 again on the top row.

As QTY select STA 3 and STA 7 on the right row.

Fly to the tgt area. When IN ZONE push the weapons release button (pickle). Watch TGT 1 and 3 get hit.

Go into the JDAM MSN menu again and select PP2 on STA 3. Push STEP and select PP2 on STA 7 as well. 
If you are still IN ZONE, just pickle again….if not, just set yourself up for another pass.

In any case the second 2 bombs should go to to TGT 2 and 4.

I just tried it in TOO, because it is a pain in the butt to program coordinates in VR…but the functionality is the same after all.

EDIT: Had the targets mixed up. Fixed.

 

I follow exactly your procedure, and still 3 targets destroyed with 4 bombs. Track and screenshot attached.

The target 1 is still alive (circle) and the arrow indicate that 2 bombs falls on it.

I cannot stop tinking that there is a problem with dual rack.

edit : programmed in PP and double check of correct coordinates for each bombs.

Test JDAMs 2..trk

Edited November 2, 2022 by vctpil

[Phantom711]

Unfortunately I can not get your track to play…

[oldcrusty]

I'm not sure how this stuff works in real Hornets but if "I" was to make any improvements to this entire program/release logic, I would include QTY# in programming sequence so we could have options to send specific PP#'s on STA's for QTY release #1,  then preset PP's on STA's for QTY release #2.   I know... it doesn't sound like much of a difference but 10 or 15 seconds shaved off from the 'PP/STA match-up' before the second QTY release could make a big difference in combat area.  Well, Boeing knows best :D

[vctpil]

11 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

Unfortunately I can not get your track to play…

Were you able to read the first track? I didn't change anything on the mission.

So, here's a track with still your procedure followed step by step, and this time, 4 targets destroyed!

I will make some more test flights with exactly the same procedure to see if the problem occurs again or not.

 

Test JDAMs 3..trk

Edited November 3, 2022 by vctpil