Will the airfields have radio homing beacons?

[Gunfreak]

The Germans planes,  Mossie and P51 at least can home not only on the airfield but actual land strip.

Sadly neither Normandy 1 or channel map has any airfields with this possibility. So if you wanna use it you Nedd to fly on the none ww2 maps.

And it can never be used in ww2 missions or Campaigns. I hope some at least on Normandy 2 have this feature.

[71st_AH Rob]

I hope not.  The best solution would be a placeable objet that mission designer can place and set the frequencies so it is not predictable. Ideally you could make a template for your missions and once set up would be quick to edit.  It would also be a legitimate target that would impede en opérations.

 If it is hard baked into the map I hope we at least can set frequency power and direction.

[Gunfreak]

28 minutes ago, 71st_AH Rob said:

I hope not.  The best solution would be a placeable objet that mission designer can place and set the frequencies so it is not predictable. Ideally you could make a template for your missions and once set up would be quick to edit.  It would also be a legitimate target that would impede en opérations.

 If it is hard baked into the map I hope we at least can set frequency power and direction.

That would be best. But ED doesn't seem to be interested in that. So it's up to the map makers to do something. 

[Pikey]

I looked for data on broadcasting stations and the location of beacons and radio stations and I found there was not that much information, so I preferred to make my own. If you find anything its easy enough to create a template for mission editors with a very alive radio for Mosquito back seat fun, however I think the time of the war was quite restrictive on navigation beacons pointing to airfields.

 

[MrExplosion]

17 hours ago, Pikey said:

I looked for data on broadcasting stations and the location of beacons and radio stations and I found there was not that much information, so I preferred to make my own. If you find anything its easy enough to create a template for mission editors with a very alive radio for Mosquito back seat fun, however I think the time of the war was quite restrictive on navigation beacons pointing to airfields.

 

I hope you implement Lorenz Blind Landing System on the bigger German airfields? This has to be done by Ugra, because you can't place the required beacons via mission editor or script.

[Pikey]

1 hour ago, MrExplosion said:

I hope you implement Lorenz Blind Landing System on the bigger German airfields? This has to be done by Ugra, because you can't place the required beacons via mission editor or script.

For the German birds I have had no luck with the navigation needles on anywhere except caucasus, I believe this is an ED problem. For landing system radios and Lorenz I actually don't think there is any implementation in game, I've been waiting. The beacons.lua of Cacuasus should provide the answer, it may be moddable witha  few lines of text, not IC compliant though.

 

[saburo_cz]

The Lorenz blind landing system could be also placed at RAF stations, old pre-war. Great Britain used this system as a SBA (Standard Beam Approach).

I think GB bought licence for it before WWII. It was written in one book about air navigation, but without ani further details.

The Mosquito has receiver for SBA in DCS W.

[MrExplosion]

4 hours ago, Pikey said:

For the German birds I have had no luck with the navigation needles on anywhere except caucasus, I believe this is an ED problem. For landing system radios and Lorenz I actually don't think there is any implementation in game, I've been waiting. The beacons.lua of Cacuasus should provide the answer, it may be moddable witha  few lines of text, not IC compliant though.

 

It is really simple to implement and I have done for Evreux on Normandy. However if Ugra does not do it, there is no way to have it working for multiplayer except with a mandatory mod or something similar. That's why imo it is so important Ugra does it.

This code goes into \Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\terrains\Normandy\Beacons.lua and will provide a Lorenz approach using the aircraft's AFN-2. Use south-west to north-east landing direction.

beacons = {
    {
		display_name = _('Evreux');
		beaconId = 'airfield26_0';
		type = BEACON_TYPE_ILS_FAR_HOMER;
		callsign = 'KT';
		frequency = 870000.000000;
		position = { -46990.25, 129.00112207036, 111855.9609375 };
		direction = 215.0;
		positionGeo = { latitude = 49.484430535713, longitude = -0.30034887075907 };
		sceneObjects = {'t:175865856'};
	};
	{
		display_name = _('Evreux');
		beaconId = 'airfield26_1';
		type = BEACON_TYPE_ILS_NEAR_HOMER;
		callsign = 'T';
		frequency = 490000.000000;
		position = { -48405.789062068, 133.08753940706, 110722.72656649 };
		direction = 215.0;
		positionGeo = { latitude = 49.484430535713, longitude = -0.30034887075907 };
		sceneObjects = {'t:176914432'};
	};
	{
		display_name = _('Evreux');
		beaconId = 'airfield26_2';
		type = BEACON_TYPE_ILS_LOCALIZER;
		callsign = 'IKB';
		frequency = 111500000.000000;
		position = { -46829.859375, 129.00112207036, 111984.671875 };
		direction = 215.0;
		positionGeo = { latitude = 49.484430535713, longitude = -0.30034887075907 };
		sceneObjects = {'t:176948122'};
	};
	{
		display_name = _('Evreux');
		beaconId = 'airfield26_3';
		type = BEACON_TYPE_ILS_GLIDESLOPE;
		callsign = 'IKB';
		frequency = 111500000.000000;
		position = { -46829.859375, 129.00112207036, 111984.671875 };
		direction = 215.0;
		positionGeo = { latitude = 49.484430535713, longitude = -0.30034887075907 };
		sceneObjects = {'t:334528516'};
	};
}

If you want to add beacons yourself, here is a simple method to do it:

In the mission editor place 3 units at the position of the ILS_LOCALIZER, NEAR_HOMER and FAR_HOMER and run this script in the mission. Run the mission and have a look at log for exact coordinates. Make sure to name the units according to the script.

local targetCoord = Unit.getByName('myUnit'):getPoint()
local curPoint = Unit.getByName('myUnit')
local lat, lon, alt = coord.LOtoLL(curPoint)

env.info('The World Coordinates of the main beacon are: X: ' .. targetCoord.x .. ' Y: ' .. targetCoord.y .. ' Z: ' .. targetCoord.z)
env.info('\nLatitude: ' .. lat .. ' \nLongitude: ' .. lon .. '\nAltitude: ' .. alt)

local targetCoord = Unit.getByName('myUnit-1'):getPoint()
local curPoint = Unit.getByName('myUnit-1')
local lat, lon, alt = coord.LOtoLL(curPoint)

env.info('The World Coordinates of the vez are: X: ' .. targetCoord.x .. ' Y: ' .. targetCoord.y .. ' Z: ' .. targetCoord.z)
env.info('\nLatitude: ' .. lat .. ' \nLongitude: ' .. lon .. '\nAltitude: ' .. alt)

local targetCoord = Unit.getByName('myUnit-2'):getPoint()
local curPoint = Unit.getByName('myUnit-2')
local lat, lon, alt = coord.LOtoLL(curPoint)

env.info('The World Coordinates of the hez are: X: ' .. targetCoord.x .. ' Y: ' .. targetCoord.y .. ' Z: ' .. targetCoord.z)
env.info('\nLatitude: ' .. lat .. ' \nLongitude: ' .. lon .. '\nAltitude: ' .. alt)

4 hours ago, saburo_cz said:

The Lorenz blind landing system could be also placed at RAF stations, old pre-war. Great Britain used this system as a SBA (Standard Beam Approach).

I think GB bought licence for it before WWII. It was written in one book about air navigation, but without ani further details.

The Mosquito has receiver for SBA in DCS W.

Imo for the british there should a DREML approach. But some used Lorenz as well for sure. I just dont know if the allied birds have the proper devices to display.

Edited February 3, 2023 by MrExplosion

[Pikey]

So its an ils in game but we cant put ils down with the me. I think we need to get back to ed.

[MrExplosion]

1 hour ago, Pikey said:

So its an ils in game but we cant put ils down with the me. I think we need to get back to ed.

Why would you want to get back to ED when Ugra is making the map right now and needs to put in the beacons for the airfields that had them?

You can check airfield equipment here: https://www.ww2.dk/Airfields - France.pdf

Out of the axis airfields that are in the new Normandy map at least Poix, Conches, Dreux & Evreux had this beam approach system. Not putting in the beacons could certainly be considered a bug.

If ED makes the proper beacons placeable by script or directly in the ME UI that's certainly a bonus but first of all let's help Ugra to get things right in this iteration of the map.

Edited February 4, 2023 by MrExplosion

[Pikey]

17 minutes ago, MrExplosion said:

Why would you want to get back to ED when Ugra is making the map right now and needs to put in the beacons for the airfields that had them?

You can check airfield equipment here: https://www.ww2.dk/Airfields - France.pdf

Out of the axis airfields that are in the new Normandy map at least Poix, Conches, Dreux & Evreux had this beam approach system. Not putting in the beacons could certainly be considered a bug.

If ED makes the proper beacons placeable by script or directly in the ME UI that's certainly a bonus but first of all let's help Ugra to get things right in this iteration of the map.

 

Yes, easy to explain. The map is based on a time period of specifically two weeks before Paris fell, 'August to mid August' based on the ALG's that are present. The PDF you provided shows that there isn't a Luftwaffe airfield on the map that is applicable. What good is the Luftwaffe approach system on Evreux when the RAF are using it that month?

Its the age old issue of when the map is based on. And, regardless of if customer A wants this time or customer B wants that time, not everyone can be satisfied by the point in time the developers sets. If you put down beacons on the map the AFN-2 on two thirds of the DCS module Luftwaffe planes that were never there in the first place would not be able to use it anyway because the airfields are being dismantled and abandoned.

Hence having the ability to ignore these constraints is optimal. I'd rather have the ability to ignore the constraints of the map than live with the map that has no beacons. Historical accuracy cannot be used as an argument for having Lorenz, its an argument for not having them on the Post invasion Normandy map. SO I think you'll find we are in agreement about wanting something that wasn't there but the route to getting that is not via Ugra.
 

[Mr_sukebe]

Isn’t an easy solution to add tacan beacons onto the airfields that you want to use?

That’s how I dealt with TACANs on the south Atlantic map

[saburo_cz]

It is pointless to have Lorenz blind landing system at airfiels in France. No one Luftwaffe plane in DCS W has receiver for that system.
Much more suitable would be simple NDBs (German WWII). The FuG-16ZY with AFN-2 is the right device for them and is in all planes. (unfortunately it does not work properly in any)

[MrExplosion]

1 hour ago, Pikey said:

Yes, easy to explain. The map is based on a time period of specifically two weeks before Paris fell, 'August to mid August' based on the ALG's that are present. The PDF you provided shows that there isn't a Luftwaffe airfield on the map that is applicable. What good is the Luftwaffe approach system on Evreux when the RAF are using it that month?

Its the age old issue of when the map is based on. And, regardless of if customer A wants this time or customer B wants that time, not everyone can be satisfied by the point in time the developers sets. If you put down beacons on the map the AFN-2 on two thirds of the DCS module Luftwaffe planes that were never there in the first place would not be able to use it anyway because the airfields are being dismantled and abandoned.

Hence having the ability to ignore these constraints is optimal. I'd rather have the ability to ignore the constraints of the map than live with the map that has no beacons. Historical accuracy cannot be used as an argument for having Lorenz, its an argument for not having them on the Post invasion Normandy map. SO I think you'll find we are in agreement about wanting something that wasn't there but the route to getting that is not via Ugra.
 

By that logic it will not be possible to have realistic night fighter ops in multiplayer for the foreseeable future. Given that the Lancaster is being made I find that quite disappointing.

If the map is based on the time period you mentioned there is no Luftwaffe base on the whole map lol. Don't you find that ridiculous?  

[MrExplosion]

1 hour ago, saburo_cz said:

It is pointless to have Lorenz blind landing system at airfiels in France. No one Luftwaffe plane in DCS W has receiver for that system.
Much more suitable would be simple NDBs (German WWII). The FuG-16ZY with AFN-2 is the right device for them and is in all planes. (unfortunately it does not work properly in any)

That's simply not correct. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_beam and the AFN-2 is the display device for navigating on that beam and not for NDBs. 

In depth info: 

https://www.cdvandt.org/fubl-ebl-project.htm

and

https://www.booklooker.de/Bücher/Angebote/titel=Die+deutschen+Funk-Navigations-+und+Funk-Führungsverfahren+bis+1945 

1 hour ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Isn’t an easy solution to add tacan beacons onto the airfields that you want to use?

That’s how I dealt with TACANs on the south Atlantic map

TACAN development started in the late 1950s.

Edited February 4, 2023 by MrExplosion

[saburo_cz]

1 hour ago, MrExplosion said:

That's simply not correct.

Unfortunately it is.
The AFN-2 is useless without receiver.

It is only indicator of the NDB with FuG-16. And that is all what the single seat LW fighter planes have in DCS W. 

If you want to know how these devices work and what they need, i would recomend this:

 

 

[Pikey]

2 hours ago, MrExplosion said:

By that logic it will not be possible to have realistic night fighter ops in multiplayer for the foreseeable future. Given that the Lancaster is being made I find that quite disappointing.

If the map is based on the time period you mentioned there is no Luftwaffe base on the whole map lol. Don't you find that ridiculous?  

It's not my logic, I'm not dying on this hill. I don't agree with anything that prevents a customer from having exactly the experience they want and yes I have found the map restrictions ridiculous for years because it's not just the beacon issue for all types of beacons but the lighting, the PCL limits, whatever else can be reasonably mentioned like if even the airfield existed and in what shape because we all know that's pretty whacky for Caucasus, Falklands and so on.
These are the cards we have been dealt and developers tend to be really specific with the time of the map setting much to anyone's disappointment otherwise. So if you ask a dev to get realistic, damn that's all the Lorenz and AFN-2 out the window for Normandy and we gained nothing except restrictions. Thus, best to have ways to work around the limitations and that's on ED to give us those options, like the TACAN they gave us after years of asking.

[MrExplosion]

2 hours ago, saburo_cz said:

Unfortunately it is.
The AFN-2 is useless without receiver.

It is only indicator of the NDB with FuG-16. And that is all what the single seat LW fighter planes have in DCS W. 

If you want to know how these devices work and what they need, i would recomend this:

 

 

Yea I know and like that channel.

The exact device presented in the video FuBl 2 F was used in single engine aircraft that were fitted for night / bad weather ops. 

I didn't know about the NDB capabilities of the Fug16ZY and always thought it was badly modeled in that other sim but you learn something every day.

 

[MrExplosion]

1 hour ago, Pikey said:

It's not my logic, I'm not dying on this hill. I don't agree with anything that prevents a customer from having exactly the experience they want and yes I have found the map restrictions ridiculous for years because it's not just the beacon issue for all types of beacons but the lighting, the PCL limits, whatever else can be reasonably mentioned like if even the airfield existed and in what shape because we all know that's pretty whacky for Caucasus, Falklands and so on.
These are the cards we have been dealt and developers tend to be really specific with the time of the map setting much to anyone's disappointment otherwise. So if you ask a dev to get realistic, damn that's all the Lorenz and AFN-2 out the window for Normandy and we gained nothing except restrictions. Thus, best to have ways to work around the limitations and that's on ED to give us those options, like the TACAN they gave us after years of asking.

The problem is we won't be getting those beacons from ED in like forever and it only takes a few minutes to put them into the map for the airfields that realistically had this equipment. If we miss the chance now it will never be done.

[Pikey]

2 hours ago, MrExplosion said:

The problem is we won't be getting those beacons from ED in like forever and it only takes a few minutes to put them into the map for the airfields that realistically had this equipment. If we miss the chance now it will never be done.

Its going to take less than a few minutes, there's none there! Or have you not read your PDF!!

[MrExplosion]

16 hours ago, Pikey said:

Its going to take less than a few minutes, there's none there! Or have you not read your PDF!!

Imo it would be okay-ish to do one airfield properly with beacons, lighting, etc so it's at least possible to do bad weather / night fighter missions.

[Mr_sukebe]

On 2/4/2023 at 2:30 PM, MrExplosion said:

That's simply not correct. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_beam and the AFN-2 is the display device for navigating on that beam and not for NDBs. 

In depth info: 

https://www.cdvandt.org/fubl-ebl-project.htm

and

https://www.booklooker.de/Bücher/Angebote/titel=Die+deutschen+Funk-Navigations-+und+Funk-Führungsverfahren+bis+1945 

TACAN development started in the late 1950s.

 

I assume that you’re correct about the TACAN introduction date.

Whilst they’d be useless as TACANs, I believe that you can probably also have their broadcast on a user defined frequency, which would allow them to be used as homing beacons

[Spuks]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:49 PM, Pikey said:

Its going to take less than a few minutes, there's none there! Or have you not read your PDF!!

Conches: grass surface on clay sub-soil. There were 2
concrete runways - (1) 1830 meters (2000 yards) aligned NE/SW, and (2) 1600 meters (1750 yards) aligned NW/SE. Each runway had an assembly hardstand at both ends. A perimeter road encircled the landing area. Both runways were equipped with permanent illumination and visual Lorenz systems, while the airfield had perimeter lighting and a beam approach system.

At least Montdidier had this Lorenz system too.

[saburo_cz]

54 minutes ago, Spuks said:

visual Lorenz systems

means lights, long row of lights with several cross-lines

[Silver_Dragon]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:58 PM, MrExplosion said:

The problem is we won't be getting those beacons from ED in like forever and it only takes a few minutes to put them into the map for the airfields that realistically had this equipment. If we miss the chance now it will never be done.

implement a realistic beacon / radio system, has not only "copy and paste" on a map. Remember some systems has no implement yet by lack of feasible info about working procedures. Has the same discussion about get RSBN / ILS / ATC mobile systems on all maps ASAP...