Radar/Sensors Discussion

[Phantom12]

I would say almost certainly not with the E, but theres always the possibility they make one in the future.

[Harlikwin]

4 hours ago, Mobius_11804 said:

Hi there, since there were so many grey-nosed german F-4's in the trailers, i've got a litte curious.

The grey nose indicated the ICE Upgrad to the F-4F with the Huges APG-65 RADAR and henceforth AMRAAM capability.

Are we going to get that as well???

No

[Czechnology]

6 hours ago, Mobius_11804 said:

Hi there, since there were so many grey-nosed german F-4's in the trailers, i've got a litte curious.

The grey nose indicated the ICE Upgrad to the F-4F with the Huges APG-65 RADAR and henceforth AMRAAM capability.

Are we going to get that as well???

Not right out of the box.
They've not made comment on if they'll do the ICE upgrade to my understanding, though they have directly said no to a "baseline" F-4F.
They have fully stated that they are committing to a US naval phantom as the next "Phantom family member", the J and the S being the front runners from what little they've commented on it. 

Past the J and the S, we might very well get an ICE upgraded F-4F down the line, but we can't really say. Either way that's going to be waaaaay down the line assuming they don't pick something like the EJ Kai instead of the ICE. Definitely after the Euro Fighter, the A-6, the F-4J or S, and whatever other projects HB get themselves involved in between now and then.

[SgtPappy]

On 2/20/2023 at 4:16 PM, Kalasnkova74 said:

In summary, this was because the brand new SA-6 was not detectable by Western defensive avionics engineered for earlier systems. As such , I’d expect the F-4E’s module’s RWR to detect the Gainful’s guidance system. Page 48 of a USAF paper submitted on the October 1973 conflict outlines this further : 

“On 6 October 1973, the S.A-6 was being employed for
the first time anywhere in the world, and it was not affected by the ECM, chaff, or flares then employed by the IAF'.

The Israeli ECM equipment was designed for the S.A-2 and S.A-3 and not for the wider frequency band over which the SA-6 radar operated. Even if the ECM were effective, the SA - 6 could have been launched under optical control.

Chaff, which
the IAF used extensively, also had to be tuned to the proper frequencies,IOW . cut to the proper lengths.The Israeli
flares were intended to divert the SA-7; they could not
affect the command plus semi-active radar homing guidance of the SA-6.”

Full document: 

 

Yeah I think I've read every publication I could find but understandably, none go into detail on what was done after the first few days of that war to get the Phantoms to detect SA-6 signals. I'm still making my way through "Ghosts of Atonement" which outlines every F-4 sortie thus unearthed in the Yom Kippur War and they've implied several times that the SA-6 lock on signal was detectable after a few days but not much is stated on how.

I wonder if by the time the US emergency Nickel Grass jets arrived if they had already been modified or if they were modified when arriving in Israel.

Lots of questions, but hopefully one day, I'll find more info.

Edited February 22, 2023 by SgtPappy

[Aussie_Mantis]

On 11/8/2022 at 5:28 PM, Czechnology said:

Read the title. I know we're getting the AN APQ-120, what do we know about the radar system? I've not found much good documentation on it. Any good range figures? Was it as terrible about ground clutter as I keep hearing? We have any good radars in DCS that can be used as a vague simulacra?

TISEO, are we getting that? Just one or both of the Phantoms we're getting, if we're getting it at all?

 

Your point about ground clutter was interesting and I did a little digging. In theory the F-4E's radar should be worse, but I can't actually find any sources apart from War Thunder, the likely least historical game in existence, that discuss whether the F-4J or F-4E radars were better. My hunch is that seeing as it's an older radar, the F-4J's PD isn't really that good, though it does do an alright job at filtering out ground clutter. From what I understand, early F-4J radars weren't that much better than the F-4E, which seems to hint that:

1. The F-4E radar isn't that good at filtering clutter out. It can, like the MiG-21bis, be equipped with filters that filter the output, but it isn't as good as having a pulse-doppler mode outright.

2. The radar doesn't usually work at low altitudes. Israeli pilots almost never used the sparrow down low, neither did US ones- I take it that's probably because trying to get a lock below ~5000 feet is about as reliable as that one guy in the friend group who never makes good on their promises. Also, at that point, the radar isn't the problem- it's the missile. Even if you achieve a lock, the Sparrow will probably decide that going to disneyland is a safer bet than thwacking a MiG and dive into the ground looking for pennies for the rides.

3. The radar is at least somewhat useable down low, but it'd only really be utilized for SEAM (Sidewinder Extended Acquisition Mode) shots. Even then, the AIM-9P and AIM-9J aren't really the best for high-aspect off-boresight shots, since they're limited to 40 degrees off boresight total, but prior to launch can only manage about 10.

On 11/9/2022 at 12:31 AM, LanceCriminal86 said:

TISEO will the be the second E that comes with DMAS and factory slats etc. TISEO was on the '71+ serial jets. First released jet will be the older 66-69 serials with retrofitted slats.

Seems in line with what was in the 2023 and beyond flick. No TISEO at all. The specific block for '71 is block 48 and above, i.e. serials 71-235 and above- aircraft on the ass end of Block 48 recieved TISEO, as well as all the blocks that came after (49-63, covering production FYs 71, 72, 73, 74 and 75. Block 49 and 50 included ass-end of '71 production.)  

As a sidenote, the early F-4E appears to have the antenna fairings for either an AP/APR-25 or AN/APR-36 set. The differences are minimal, it's just that the Dash-36 is all-digital while the 25 is not.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Aussie_Mantis

[Quid]

On 3/29/2023 at 4:07 AM, Aussie_Mantis said:

Your point about ground clutter was interesting and I did a little digging. In theory the F-4E's radar should be worse, but I can't actually find any sources apart from War Thunder, the likely least historical game in existence, that discuss whether the F-4J or F-4E radars were better. My hunch is that seeing as it's an older radar, the F-4J's PD isn't really that good, though it does do an alright job at filtering out ground clutter. From what I understand, early F-4J radars weren't that much better than the F-4E, which seems to hint that:

1. The F-4E radar isn't that good at filtering clutter out. It can, like the MiG-21bis, be equipped with filters that filter the output, but it isn't as good as having a pulse-doppler mode outright.

2. The radar doesn't usually work at low altitudes. Israeli pilots almost never used the sparrow down low, neither did US ones- I take it that's probably because trying to get a lock below ~5000 feet is about as reliable as that one guy in the friend group who never makes good on their promises. Also, at that point, the radar isn't the problem- it's the missile. Even if you achieve a lock, the Sparrow will probably decide that going to disneyland is a safer bet than thwacking a MiG and dive into the ground looking for pennies for the rides.

3. The radar is at least somewhat useable down low, but it'd only really be utilized for SEAM (Sidewinder Extended Acquisition Mode) shots. Even then, the AIM-9P and AIM-9J aren't really the best for high-aspect off-boresight shots, since they're limited to 40 degrees off boresight total, but prior to launch can only manage about 10.

Seems in line with what was in the 2023 and beyond flick. No TISEO at all. The specific block for '71 is block 48 and above, i.e. serials 71-235 and above- aircraft on the ass end of Block 48 recieved TISEO, as well as all the blocks that came after (49-63, covering production FYs 71, 72, 73, 74 and 75. Block 49 and 50 included ass-end of '71 production.)  

As a sidenote, the early F-4E appears to have the antenna fairings for either an AP/APR-25 or AN/APR-36 set. The differences are minimal, it's just that the Dash-36 is all-digital while the 25 is not.

 

 

[F-2]

On 4/1/2023 at 1:02 PM, Quid said:

 

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/awg-10-wcs-and-apg-59-radar.26563/page-2
 

flight test data on the AWG-10 from the UK F-4K acquisition supports the other report

 

[SgtPappy]

So it looks like we are getting the ALR-46 RHAW of which there were many versions.

Because the development of this system for DCS is related very closely to the ALR-45 on the F-14A (early) with a strobe display, I assume the F-4E is also getting an earlier strobe display design, unlike the alphanumeric ALR-46 version the DCS F-5E.

Can anyone from HB confirm this? And does anyone have more info on this system? Most of my docs only talk about the APR-36/37 that showed up on the later F-4E's in Vietnam and Israel in 1972/73. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by SgtPappy

[Aussie_Mantis]

On 4/2/2023 at 3:02 AM, Quid said:

 

What you sent is very relevant, thanks.

However, it doesn't describe the predecessor to CAA (I forgot the name) that allowed it to somewhat filter out ground clutter (though nowhere as efficiently as PD), and I'm pretty sure there were a couple of sidegrdes to the antenna that switched around how it works. I remember however that early versions of the AN/APG-120 were very bad. I think there was an expanded AutoAcquis boresight mode that went out beyond 12,500 feet??? But I'm seriously not sure about this.

As I said, I will do some further research into this topic. Thanks a lot for the reports though! They're really interesting reads!

On 4/3/2023 at 1:08 PM, SgtPappy said:

So it looks like we are getting the ALR-46 RHAW of which there were many versions.

Because the development of this system for DCS is related very closely to the ALR-45 on the F-14A (early) with a strobe display, I assume the F-4E is also getting an earlier strobe display design, unlike the alphanumeric ALR-46 version the DCS F-5E.

Can anyone from HB confirm this? And does anyone have more info on this system? Most of my docs only talk about the APR-36/37 that showed up on the later F-4E's in Vietnam and Israel in 1972/73. 

 

Uhhhhummmm...

 

I don't know. Maybe. maybe not. It'd be cool if we got it though. The ALphanumeric one on the F-5E is the AN/ALR-46(V)3/AN/ALR-46(V)4 (I forgot which one) and I don't know if that's within our timeframe and whether or not all of the AN/ALR-46 variants have alphanumeric coding.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Aussie_Mantis

[SgtPappy]

5 minutes ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

 

I don't know. Maybe. maybe not. It'd be cool if we got it though. The ALphanumeric one on the F-5E is the AN/ALR-46(V)3/AN/ALR-46(V)4 (I forgot which one) and I don't know if that's within our timeframe and whether or not all of the AN/ALR-46 variants have alphanumeric coding.

 

 

 

I'm actually hoping it has the strobe display instead of the alphanumeric one since that would more reflect what would have been used in the wars in that time frame. Also, it would be a more novel feature for DCS.

[Aussie_Mantis]

On 4/5/2023 at 1:51 AM, SgtPappy said:

I'm actually hoping it has the strobe display instead of the alphanumeric one since that would more reflect what would have been used in the wars in that time frame. Also, it would be a more novel feature for DCS.

I'm hoping it doesn't- I've tried using the strobe display in other games before. I hated every minute of it. It's useful knowing when someone's locking you but when that could be anything from a MiG-21 to an SA-2 your situational awareness is cut in half.

Thankfully, I think and am pretty sure that the MiG-21 and other aircraft use X-band FCS radars, which means they'd appear as dotted lines on the RWR strobe, while solid lines would be SA-2 et cetera. The concern then becomes operating in a cluttered RWR environment. The strobe would be unique, admittedly, but looking up and down from the display to the console is going to get really annoying for me, really fast.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Aussie_Mantis

[JB3DG]

2 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

I'm hoping it doesn't- I've tried using the strobe display in other games before. I hated every minute of it. It's useful knowing when someone's locking you but when that could be anything from a MiG-21 to an SA-2 your situational awareness is cut in half.

Thankfully, I think and am pretty sure that the MiG-21 and other aircraft use X-band FCS radars, which means they'd appear as dotted lines on the RWR strobe, while solid lines would be SA-2 et cetera. The concern then becomes operating in a cluttered RWR environment. The strobe would be unique, admittedly, but looking up and down from the display to the console is going to get really annoying for me, really fast.

 

The way they could tell if it was an airborne radar vs a ground based radar is by how the strobe would move around the display. Azimuth would change differently for an airborne interceptor vs a ground based radar.

[SgtPappy]

23 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

I'm hoping it doesn't- I've tried using the strobe display in other games before. I hated every minute of it. It's useful knowing when someone's locking you but when that could be anything from a MiG-21 to an SA-2 your situational awareness is cut in half.

Thankfully, I think and am pretty sure that the MiG-21 and other aircraft use X-band FCS radars, which means they'd appear as dotted lines on the RWR strobe, while solid lines would be SA-2 et cetera. The concern then becomes operating in a cluttered RWR environment. The strobe would be unique, admittedly, but looking up and down from the display to the console is going to get really annoying for me, really fast.

 

There will also be unique audio for each emitter and filter buttons to help you focus on one type or the other. Still crude but of course threats at the time were fewer in type.

I think it would be ideal for me if the earlier F-4E had the strobe display and the later F-4E with DMAS had the alphanumeric display. Best of both worlds and maximum immersion for the time frames.

Edited April 8, 2023 by SgtPappy

[Aussie_Mantis]

8 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

There will also be unique audio for each emitter and filter buttons to help you focus on one type or the other. Still crude but of course threats at the time were fewer in type.

I think it would be ideal for me if the earlier F-4E had the strobe display and the later F-4E with DMAS had the alphanumeric display. Best of both words and maximum immersion for the time frames.

 

I'd be fine with that, I mostly intend to fly DMAS F-4Es anyway.

[Dragon1-1]

The strobe display would provide a similar level of SA as the SPO-15 on the MiG-21, so I'd say it'd be appropriate for its era. 

[DSplayer]

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The strobe display would provide a similar level of SA as the SPO-15 on the MiG-21, so I'd say it'd be appropriate for its era. 

The APR-46's strobe display provides a lot SA in my opinion compared to the SPO-10 on the MiG-21. You can actually tell what has launched at you, what the emitter is, etc. based on the sound and the coverage that the RWR provides is significantly better than the 4 lights on the SPO-10.

[Quid]

I'm assuming (and we all know where that leads) that for the F-4E on release, it will be the "older" strobe style at least initially.  Reason being that I recall HB mentioning that a key to the "early" F-14A (really, the F-14A until roundabouts 1999-2000-ish when it finally started getting the ALR-67 installed) and the F-4 was modelling the ALR-45/50 and comparable systems with their unique sounds and strobes.  If the F-4E is supposed to be in roughly Vietnam War era configuration on release, then I'd expect strobes and vectors, not alphanumeric.  If they choose to model a later F-4E in the future, then I'd expect the latter at some point.  

[Aussie_Mantis]

On 4/9/2023 at 1:10 AM, DSplayer said:

The APR-46's strobe display provides a lot SA in my opinion compared to the SPO-10 on the MiG-21. You can actually tell what has launched at you, what the emitter is, etc. based on the sound and the coverage that the RWR provides is significantly better than the 4 lights on the SPO-10.

It provides way more. that's literally objective fact outright. The SPO-10 only provides, what- four directions? The AN/APR-46 provides pretty much every direction, and the only one it gets outright confused by is that it gets 3 clustered together when dead to the front, and even then, it's so close together that it looks like one emitter is firing anyhow.

 

As you said, it gives you SOME indication about what it is that's been beamed at you- the strobe display at least distinguishes between X and S band radars to distinguish between ground and air (S-band is a solid line, X-band is a dotted line), and more importantly, it has a separate console next to you that at least tells you what kinds of radar are lighting you up. It might not specifically tell you which strobes they are, but the knowledge that you have X kind of radar lighting you up is very useful- especially when deciding between trying to react against a Fan Song or a Fire Can, or when you're trying to figure out what kind of plane is lighting you up. It also provides indications of strength, which soviet RWRs do not, and indications of whether it's searching or tracking.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Aussie_Mantis

[Dragon1-1]

Note that IRL, the RWR isn't an accurate direction finder. SPO-10 provides you with eight directions, which is about the kind of accuracy could get from the real AN/APR-46. Probably the biggest advantage is the ability to tell multiple signals apart. Knowing the band is nice, as well, but that alone tells you relatively little unless there are very few types of radar-equipped threats around.

[Aussie_Mantis]

5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Note that IRL, the RWR isn't an accurate direction finder. SPO-10 provides you with eight directions, which is about the kind of accuracy could get from the real AN/APR-46. Probably the biggest advantage is the ability to tell multiple signals apart. Knowing the band is nice, as well, but that alone tells you relatively little unless there are very few types of radar-equipped threats around.

SPO-10 has 4 direction indicators, one for each diagonal directon. SPO-15 has eight over the frontal arc plus two for the rear- one on each side. Neither give exact directions, they are limited to telling you that they are a set amount of degrees off to a certain side- in the case of SPO-10 there might as well not be any decent indi ation at all of bearing. Meanwhile, AN/APR-46 is omnidirectional, and gives you a much better bearing calculation and indication. There's a massive difference between the two in terms of accuracy and arc covered and I wouldn't hesitate to argue that every single US RWR set starting from AN/APR-25 was arguably better and more advanced than any set used on service Soviet Union aircraft.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Aussie_Mantis

[Dragon1-1]

17 minutes ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

SPO-10 has 4 direction indicators, one for each diagonal directon. 

Yes, and if two of them light up, you know the emitter is between those directions. That makes eight. AN/APR-46 might seem like it's more accurate than that, but it's not. The fact that display can show a contact on an arbitrary bearing does not mean the antennas can actually determine bearing with any kind of accuracy. In DCS, modern RWRs are far too reliable, IRL they get false positives all the time, and the bearing indication is still approximate, even on a modern Hornet. Nothing like in DCS, where you can notch a missile using RWR.

[Aussie_Mantis]

On 4/19/2023 at 1:58 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Yes, and if two of them light up, you know the emitter is between those directions. That makes eight. AN/APR-46 might seem like it's more accurate than that, but it's not. The fact that display can show a contact on an arbitrary bearing does not mean the antennas can actually determine bearing with any kind of accuracy. In DCS, modern RWRs are far too reliable, IRL they get false positives all the time, and the bearing indication is still approximate, even on a modern Hornet. Nothing like in DCS, where you can notch a missile using RWR.

knowing an approximate direction is much better than just vaguely knowing they're between two emitters. SPO-10 is just a trash tier RWR.

[Temetre]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Aussie_Mantis:

knowing an approximate direction is much better than just vaguely knowing they're between two emitters. SPO-10 is just a trash tier RWR.

Not just that, while I might not fully understand the system, I just found it utterly useless in more busy situations. Like a Liberation mission where theres dozens of radar emitters your RWR is picking up at every time. At that point the SPO-10 is just a mess.

If the F4 has even basic functions to seperately show signals and vague directions, that would be a major help.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Temetre

[Aussie_Mantis]

20 hours ago, Temetre said:

Not just that, while I might not fully understand the system, I just found it utterly useless in more busy situations. Like a Liberation mission where theres dozens of radar emitters your RWR is picking up at every time. At that point the SPO-10 is just a mess.

If the F4 has even basic functions to seperately show signals and vague directions, that would be a major help.

 

Yeah, that was my point about approximate direction. SPO-10 doesn't let you see individual directions of emitters. I mean sure, if you're literally solely a Air 1v1 player then sure, fine, but in most campaigns, people tend to forget that there are more than one radar beams pointing at you at any given time. If all four emitters are going off then how do you tell where you're getting hammered from?

[Aussie_Mantis]

 

Hey guys, necro'ing this thread again because I had a question about what the pinky switch does- in the non-nuclear weapons delivery manual it states a bunch of azimuth values- what exactly does this mean? Does it mean that when the guns position is selected, the slewable scan centers around 15 degrees to the left instead of directly in front of the plane, and so and so forth?

Edited June 9, 2023 by Aussie_Mantis