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Ground units too accurate vs air targets


schurem
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Dear all,

 

I have experienced multiple instances of ground units such as the ZU-23 or ZSU-57 hitting maneuvering, fast targets on their first salvo despite being set to the lowest skill level. This sucks. Please detune low skill level accuracy significantly.

 

There's also some weird and ugly disparities between ground units themselves. A BMP-2 should not be as deadly if not deadlier than a ZSU-23-4, but often it is. Pintle mounted tank MGs should not swat hornets buzzing about at thousands of feet distance.

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I5 9600KF, 32GB, 3080ti, G2, PointCTRL

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  • 2 weeks later...

The tank tube launched missiles are unrealistic as well. First every tank seems to battle carry them. Second they need to be removable - they are rarely used as they cause lots of problems with bore-sighting, tube wear, etc and are  prohibitively  expensive. 
 

AI always see you first. Often times when engaged with a tomcat it is cold and the moment I’m in its detection cone the missile launches. Sheesh is the radar always on that side of its scan? The wso always ready to lock, ignoring all G effects of their evasion, etc. what’s being done to tone down the AI and add some degree of difference in capability?

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Agreed on the BMP. In fact, in most situations they wouldn't even be able to see the aircraft while aiming at it, because their sight FOV is too small for tracking a fast moving target. Anything that doesn't have a dedicated AA sight would never be able to pull enough lead (unless the fastmover is flying head-on, but then, range changes rapidly, creating other problems). Even with a dedicated sight, spray and pray is often the way those weapons are used, because line of sight rate is just too high with a fastmover.

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  • ED Team

The issues with BMPs and other such ground units that out perform AA is already reported. 

As for the Zu-23 and such hitting on the first salvo, can you include a track, I am sure head on this might be true, but generally do not see too many issues with fast maneuvering aircraft.

Thanks!

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I don’t have a track but I have had ground fire pop me before I could maneuver in an Apache… with the sun directly behind me. The AI is simply all knowing and to proficient even with lower settings in. Might we look at reductions in awareness, response, and technical ability for scenarios. 

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On 12/7/2022 at 6:41 AM, NineLine said:

We have some things requested already, that said I need to see a track of any issues you guys see as examples to give the team. Thanks.

Attached track shows a single zu-23 set to minimum skill killing a passing F-16 going at mach 1.26 in its first burst. Even when set to minimum skill, the AI is still absurdly good at shooting flying targets. 

https://streamable.com/psxiqd

Another issue is that the AI pretty much instantly finds targets as soon as they pop up behind obstacles. Attached is a track where a zu23 (minimum skill) instantly finds an apache from 2 kilometers away as soon as it unmasks itself behind obstacles and trees. Keep in mind the PoV in the video in super zoomed in, without zoom and the naked eye there is pretty much zero chance you would ever spot that helicopter visually.

https://streamable.com/0sdokc

 

ai_trees.trk zu23_firstburst.trk

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Even if its not perfect (reading about this in the changelog is) I am extremely happy to see this issue is on your radar screens, @NineLineThanks in advance for your time and effort.

Are the tracks @Default774 provided (good job mate!) sufficient, or should I put some things in a test missions and make some more tracks?

 

I am of the opinion that at the lowest skill settings, ground fire should be pretty much nearly random. The highest skill level can be terminator Zaitsev bots, but there really should be a setting to get them to be mostly decorative instead of effective 😉 


Edited by schurem
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I5 9600KF, 32GB, 3080ti, G2, PointCTRL

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A for instance happened just now to a buddy in the 104th server. He is in an Apache and doesn't have his TAD over the hill in front of him and he got sniped by a BMP. Now friends, I've had the opportunity to be in a BMP on a couple of occasions, and even got to fire one. I used to see the antenna balls swaying on vehicles before they came over a hill while sitting in the defense from about 2k in the Abrams but in that BMP seeing anything out past a mile was pretty tough unless it was moving and I knew or suspected what it was. A hovering helo with a background so not moving really and not skylighted... Nah I wouldn't see it probably even with a shot. But the AI knows where you are (Apache's attack into the wind BTW so ground forces don't hear them) regardless of how painstakingly you plot your attack and those things should be rewarded in DCS. Instead you spend that extra time and get hammered anyway. It is so frustrating three of us just gave up to go do something else lol. 

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Am 7.12.2022 um 06:41 schrieb NineLine:

We have some things requested already, that said I need to see a track of any issues you guys see as examples to give the team. Thanks.

In general there are some basic rules for ground troops when training anti-air with small arms (self defense), which should be reflected in the AI.

1) Only fire on approaching aircraft - Everything without a targeting computer (calculating lead) shall only fire on approaching targets until they pass the "gunners 3-9-line". You must not waste ammo trying to shoot past an aircraft flying away from you! This was drilled into our heads. The chance to "eyeball" a correct lead in three dimensions on a target flying away from you are slim to none.

Currently the AI uses pretty accurate lead calculation as it is not limited by a human brain, often firing at you after you already passed and are flying away.

2) Small arms fire denies airspace through massed fire, not accuracy - the goal of defensive fire against aircraft from Ak-47, M-16 through Machine Guns to .50 cal/Dshk is to throw enough bullets and tracers into the flight path to force the pilot to evade and abort the attack run. Not to precision kill aircraft over the battlefield. That doesn't mean there are no lucky potshots, but the idea is to throw up a lead curtain.

That's not something to "show" in a track, but to consider for the AI decision making and maybe adjust accuracy for lead calculation at angles to target greater than 80° etc.

Hope this helps a bit.

 


Edited by shagrat
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Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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Oh yeah I get it, when I reported it I put some AA units on one side and BMPs on the other, then watched the reaction time and accuracy of both, the BMPs stomped the AA units.

From what I can see, but have not confirmed is that the BMPs and other ground units like them are able to look 360 degrees at all times, which should not be possible obviously, I mean I could see having a crew of a few guys all looking in different directions but the reaction time would be horrendous compared to what we see now. 

Its the trick with AI, and something we fight against even with aircraft AI, making them smart enough to be interesting but dumb enough to be real 🙂

This was a subject of the poll I did last year as well, about spotting a tank in a forest, AI can see the smallest part of a unit where a user could not see it at all. 

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb NineLine:

Oh yeah I get it, when I reported it I put some AA units on one side and BMPs on the other, then watched the reaction time and accuracy of both, the BMPs stomped the AA units.

From what I can see, but have not confirmed is that the BMPs and other ground units like them are able to look 360 degrees at all times, which should not be possible obviously, I mean I could see having a crew of a few guys all looking in different directions but the reaction time would be horrendous compared to what we see now. 

Its the trick with AI, and something we fight against even with aircraft AI, making them smart enough to be interesting but dumb enough to be real 🙂

This was a subject of the poll I did last year as well, about spotting a tank in a forest, AI can see the smallest part of a unit where a user could not see it at all. 

IIRC they do "see" 360°, but(!) the factor to determine LOS is the detection time. The DCS database of course "knows" the location of every unit, so the detection is a calculation of factors, part environment (time of day, distance, weather, etc.), target size, angle and movement, and finally the time a LOS exists. Ultimately after a long enough wait you are detected if you are close enough. One of the factors should be front/side vs. rear, though the GROUP "communicates" targets and if you set a group spread out and facing all directions it should "see" 360°. I am not 100% sure this covers all aspects of detection/targeting, though.

The real "issue" is the inhuman accuracy of non-AA-Units. A Zsu-23-2 with optical sensor is pretty ok in terms of air defense, its accuracy and tracking ability fair and sound. The IFVs and Tanks, basically all armed ground units not labeled air defense, on the other side seem to use waaaayyy too precise lead calculation for air targets.

I suspect they use the same calculation they use for ground targets?

 

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Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 32GB | GeForce RTX 2080S - Acer XB280HK 28" 4k | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | TM Cougar MFDs | a hand made UFC | AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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There should be a new skill level to represent less disciplined insurgents shooting from the hip or being intoxicated. (Yes that's a thing) Overall we need more survivability to make interesting and realistic COIN missions. Right now the infantry are little human mini-shilkas that swat everything out of the sky they see. Aimbot + no recoil. Same for MGs on vehicles.

AI Apache armed with 30mm attacks 2 technicals with dishkas... Apache got shot down 4 out of 5 times.

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