A neues Gwand für die Dora! - Hi Res Textures for the Dora

[Doughguy]

Heres some interesting pics from the web ive came across. I think one of the greens is defo our regular rlm82. The other rather appears like a the ominous rlm83 which is darker green with a brown nuance in it.  Unlike on the rudder that has brown specs on it. And these arent rust.

Eventually said green color in question is rlm74? Which appears to be a pale dark olive green.

Either way. This subject is rather highly speculative and on the end i wont fixate on single machines and replicate them but base known and used colors variations for a whole staffel. So theres gonna be a bit of mix n match for everyone.

Ive laid out the color codes for each gruppe and staffel and it seems the 7./26 brown numerals of II. gruppe are rather an oddity as they actually should be yellow.

Eg.:

I. group

1. Staffel white

2.staffel black

3. Staffel yellow. 

4. Staffel blue

II. Group.

5. Staffel white

6. Staffel black

7. Staffel brown.

8. Staffel blue 

However 

III. /11. staffel has yellow numerals again, same as 15. Staffel. And no evidence of 16. Staffel so far. 4th staffeln also seem to have sported blue spinner housings. Would make for a nice change.

Im not even sure if all staffeln were equipped with doras  but for many i have photographic evidence of at least one example.

Progress wise ive made fixes to the pattern maskings mainly. Tedious work doin it ol skewl way...

At im also gathering reference on mud splatter as doras would basically taxi on muddy fieldways in the last weeks and also various scratch and chipping patterns ill be using as photoshop brushes for masks.

i also decided to respray the camouflage patterns again on a way so theyre not even in opacity for that rushed late war look.

The balkenkreuz and swastika seem to be sprayed on where as the b/w spinner and staffel  numbers appear to be applied by brush. Gonna replicate that.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Doughguy

[Ala13_ManOWar]

5 hours ago, Doughguy said:

The other rather appears like a the ominous rlm83 which is darker green with a brown nuance in it.

Remember we already talked here, it's impossible for it to be RLM 83, it never existed in the first place. It's just different shades or RLM 81, so there was brown 81, but also greener than thought 81 since people called it 83 for so many years, but it wasn't. Also, 82 probably had consistency problems either as all late war equipment.

Nice pics by the way.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Doughguy]

Aye hence the ominous.

But your comment got me thinking.

The basic color combo could be rlm 81/82 indeed if it was the doras early full color pattern and 81 indeed was a greener color. Youd then have green shade only top surfaces and once war situation deteriorated green pigments became scarce and predominantely rlm 81 brown was used for top surfaces.  This would correspond eg. III./jg54 / IV./jg26 having rather greenish camouflage aswell as stabs doras compared to eg II. and III. Group / jg26 doras that were build by mimetall.

The famous yellow.10 would follow the same pattern before bein mottled up with rlm 81 and rlm 82. The japo book follows this pattern/scheme aswell as for the underside leading edge bein covered on brown rlm 81.

However the flyin heritage museum has the basic top surfaces painted in what appears a medium grey rlm75.

Also colored images of the d13 on the book "yellow 10" support this.

Boggles with ones mind...

Edited December 11, 2022 by Doughguy

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Yep, maybe, why not. And yes, it's also mindblowing since so many people see so many colour shades on B&W pictures. I wouldn't remember which one it was, but once I saw a colour pic of a late LW subject which was represented in so many different colours and patterns previously, and it's just laughable how people see so many shades that wasn't there at all once the colour pic showed up, it was a "boring" standard LW pattern after all and just that , but just as expected I must add . All debates were just in people's minds. That's why I tend to be not so enthusiastic with colours and patterns as many people out there are.
 

5 hours ago, Doughguy said:

 

 

For instance, look at this from your previous pics, the upper part is probably RLM 82, that bright green matches it quite well and looks the thing, definitely. But the lower part might well be 81, either in a soft edges cammo pattern or maybe a mottled overspray (knowing which part might that wrinkled piece be would help a bit, but hard to tell). Or maybe it's the same colour just worn out because how it was preserved. That I've seen myself on some SCW remains I've had in my hand, and yes, some parts might look like they were painted yesterday while others are badly battered, in the same piece, the same colour, no cammo at all. That's another reason why I'm always wary about preserved remains, not always that well preserved at all as they might look like at first glance. But sometimes they are really well preserved and shouldn't be dismissed just because all the time it's been. Problem with that is one should be able to see the parts by oneself and that's usually hard, if even possible.

So, yes, it's a mind boggling subject. I tend now not to obsess over the matter, it's just impossible to know unless some other evidences, be it documental or better preserved parts, show up and clear it all in one stroke. But it's good to remember also the simpler answer is so many times the correct one no matter how entangled it looks. 81/82/76 was the standard pattern, colour variation is to be expected. So just stick to that and life goes easier .

[Doughguy]

Some more work.

Some minor fixes to the pattern here and there. Still tryin to allign the exhaust residue... ED decided to split UVW at the most inconvenient place... the wing fillet.. leaving one
to allign pixel dust  on 3 adjecant pieces *shakesfist*

I guess ill tone it down on the wingroot and filet for the sake of optical integrety.... figured ive exagerated it on these parts anyway since most residue seems to appear on the fuselage sides anyway.

Added some mud splatters as test.The bottom fuselage is a UVW seam nightmare aswell... wings,center piece, andrest of fuselage. *shakesfistevenmore*

Gonna take a break from the diffuse map and concentrate on the panels and rivets, since i could gather good info and ref. 

All of the lables are subject to change. Seen enough references, where some particular  labels arent present. Atm is just for the sake of them bein "complete".

Edited December 13, 2022 by Doughguy

[Doughguy]

Quick update on the Numbers thats gonna be used.

Its bit of a mish mash but wanted to show the "painted" effect of each numeral.

Some staffel numerals will have painted rims. Some staffeln used different "fonts", eg. more square 8, not overall round 3 but with an edged top etc..
Not sure if ill to multiple versions of shape or just go along with the colors.

 

 

Whats also visible is the fact that the numerals are too close to the balkenkreuz. In order to correct that and make the stabs versions work ill have to move the balken kreuz a bit to the aft,possibly sizing it down. Bit of a trade-off.

[Doughguy]

Exhaust residue still gave me an itch.

 

Nearly there!

Used an old skewl trick to minimize seams. Copy and mirror a part and work from that.
Tiny seam still visible on the center of the fillet... have to move that part of the texture a few pixel.s

Front part of the wing root still to be adjusted, but thats a minor thing.

Chipping isnt mine but ED default tex.

[Doughguy]

More work. Quite happy with the exhaust residue. Not so with the ejectionport residue etc... not found good examples of how it should look like in RL (halp plz).

Added some more masks to have a library on possible finish combinations.

Re done the wing mask. Re did the leading edge and made it so to be more compatible with further variations.
Also partially "resprayed" the pattern in an uneven fashion to redo the "hasty late war slave labor" finish.

Redid the spinner. Pixel density seems lower in that area. Pity.

Added a fabric overlay over the control surfaces and some stand in generic red primer chipping on these.

Fixed the marbling overlay layer and that led to less visible seams. They´re still pita,  especially around the wheelbays and adding mud spatter around them will be pure masochism..
Some wonky stuff still going on on the left hand wing filet... not tracked down the culprit yet.

Still have to fix some seams and paint fill errors here and there.

However, gonna continue on workin on the panels and rivets tomorrow, before i can continue working on the diffuse. The new panel and rivet mask is needed for correct dust/grime masking and essential for doing some good chipping.

Anyway,Pics:

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Your rivetcounting job looks great so far .

 

14 hours ago, Doughguy said:

Not so with the ejectionport residue etc... not found good examples of how it should look like in RL (halp plz).

TBH I believe we modellers tend to overdo the ejectors stain, which should be anywhere close to actual guns/cannons stains, there it's hot gases and actual spare gunpowder, in the ejectors should be either minimal stain in a long standing badly battered aircraft or almost nothing in most cases. Anyhow, I took a look at my files just in case. Here what I found either Fw190 related or other examples since it's always hard to find pics of that exact detail in the exact model one seeks.

 

First one, I agree with your statement, your exhaust stains looks good, but perusing for the other ones I found this close one with that reheat effect in the first area of the stain itself and it's nice, just for your reference if you like.

 

Second one, Smithsonian's Ta-152H, again I know it's not your exact subject but should be close, those are the nose mounted cannons case ejectors (both squared on top, don't look at the engine oil tains). Well, it's been almost 80 years, that aircraft has been retouched in paint at some moment, not the entire aircraft though but who knows what was touched up and what not, albeit it's said somewhere it was mostly the top cowling and markings on the fuselage and tail. Anyhow, not a lot of stains there.

 

This is the best undersides pic I could find of any Fw190, but it's definitely repainted in RAF colours and probably never used the guns so hard for the ejectors to be stained at all, I guess, but then again…

This is a G model, no outer wings cannons, but the inner ones look just stainless, not only ejectors themselves, even leading edge with the guns. Maybe not a very much used example in this pic, who knows.

 

Yeah, I know, wrong subject and low cal machineguns there, but I believe it's one of the best examples I could find of ejector stains and it's definitely a heavy operational aircraft in the middle of BoB, yet stains are quite faint, even gun stains themselves so a very subtle thing could be done but not a lot anyhow, nothing comparable to oil, fuel, or even exhaust marks.

 

Again wrong subject, but you can't find too many pics on the exact one we're looking for. Good example though of a wartime original colour pic and it shows guns stains, and ejectors stains which apparently adds up to the main gun stain since those are somewhat aligned. Yet, still it's a somewhat subtle effect.

 

So, I know there are some examples of case ejectors stains out there, I've seen some somewhere but I couldn't find them right now, sorry. Still, those stains apparently aren't that much visible on many subjects but only a subtle hint, most of the times nothing at all even though I'm sure if we could examine those in close by ourselves something should be there, but hardly seen in pics even looking for some subjects you should see something because the number and position of guns, I even searched on Korean war pics, so much better and easy to find than WWII colour stuff, but even an F-86 with all the guns sitting right next to each other wouldn't stain at all for a reason. So not a lot shows up, even less the exact Dora Subject. I would go with just a small subtle hint to be sure not to overdo it and that's all unless somebody can find a better pic.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Doughguy]

Thx for the pics. I havent touched the rivets yet as these are the ED ones. I will tho.

Thanks a bunch for the pics! They´ll help alot! Seems i wasnt far off with my exhaust staining. Will add that reheat stain. Id assume that special spot will be rather grey in color iirc from other pics, so not rainbow colored like some exhaust pipes seen on eg motorcycles.

 

Will tone down the gun residue.

[Doughguy]

Some panel work.

Some parts need to retouched but first impression is pretty solid imho. Atm panels are grey, also to act as a standin for a height map for normal map and also to sort each part to act as masks for the diffuse and the roughness map respectively.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

4 hours ago, Doughguy said:

Id assume that special spot will be rather grey in color iirc from other pics, so not rainbow colored like some exhaust pipes seen on eg motorcycles.

Yeah, no, here it's aluminium after all so the rainbow effect isn't that common. The Core of the reheat seems to be bare metal, probably the hottest spot of it all and it burned all the paint to the root, though not polished metal of course, with surroundings in a typical whitish stain, which is usually not that white but a creamy light brown though looking whitish because of the contrast with the very dark brown main stain use to be. That kind of colour range usually looks good and quite fitted for these subjects. But looking at other photos it doesn't seem to be very common. I don't know if it's just the low quality of those B&W pics or they really aren't very much alike that exact pic. Wouldn't know TBH, but it's just a nice looking effect. Your call there.

[Doughguy]

Quick update. Ironed out the major kinks in the panel base. Some few small alignment errors left. Nothing spectacular.
Have to see how the panel spacing works.
Good thing about panel work is that one has better control about how the spaces between the panels look like.
Old skewl approach of plane texturing is just drawing the nooks n cranies, but that produces uniform spaces which dont really happen irl.

UVW´s are partially screwed which is a pita to remedy....

Started riveting work. Doing this click by click to produce an uneven result. Takes time, so i work panel by panel.
Fact that the ED doras panel/riveting pattern are quite off to some of my sources means i have to prepare quite a lot.

Also made a flat screw brush and made some tests with it.

Will do a round head screw and  bigger rivet brush as the dora uses quite an array for these things... just have to identify where is what.

 

once that map is done itll serve as mask and cavity map for the diffuse as well as base for the normal map.For the latter i will add various dings to the surfaces to make it more uneven eg. stressed skin etc.

[Doughguy]

Well well,

riveting like rosie,

 

And suddenly, overlappin UVW´s

 

 

[Doughguy]

Wing underside and part of the ventral fuselage.

Noticed some panel errors here and there.

Cant really split the panel around exhaust as the uvw´s are really skewed... sowwy..

[Magic Zach]

Heyo!  I don't know how this thread slipped past my attention.  Glad to see we've both got similar projects in mind, for different aircraft.  Honestly, the Dora was the immediate aircraft after the Mustang that really needed this kind of attention, and I'm so glad someone is actually giving it a shot!

Also, scrolling up through the thread looking at these photos, the attention on the control surfaces so it looks like fabric...also the bort numbers have the paint brush streaks so they look hand-painted, and the mud splatter around the gear...great stuff!

Edited December 26, 2022 by Magic Zach

[Doughguy]

Cheers bud.

Half the job or even more is just observation.

So gathering ref pics like a magpie on crack is what i do.

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

@Doughguy. This is great work! I share your pain regarding the irritating UV unwraps, especially the wingroot.

I notice the use of red primer around some panels, etc. I was wondering if you have any documentation photos of it's use. I've been searching for documentation of field repairs and how they were carried out. Flush patches? Simple "scab" patches? Were they red primered, gray primered or painted to match? Or maybe left bare aluminum? My searches haven't had much success so far.

Mostly interested in Luftwaffe but I'm curious about how all of the services accomplished this in the field.

Anyone else have input?

[Doughguy]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb II.JG1_Vonrd:

@Doughguy. This is great work! I share your pain regarding the irritating UV unwraps, especially the wingroot.

I notice the use of red primer around some panels, etc. I was wondering if you have any documentation photos of it's use. I've been searching for documentation of field repairs and how they were carried out. Flush patches? Simple "scab" patches? Were they red primered, gray primered or painted to match? Or maybe left bare aluminum? My searches haven't had much success so far.

Mostly interested in Luftwaffe but I'm curious about how all of the services accomplished this in the field.

Anyone else have input?

Hi. Thx. 

Ive skimmed some literature and studies photos. Im no expert but you have to keep in mind its 44/45.

Situation is dire. Rlm colors used as available. No primer used on aluminium surfaces but just thin layers applied by unskilled force labor workers. Very few veteran pilots left. Young pilots fall like flies in their new machines.

So field repairs -if even necessary as losses were high and write offs a regularity- would devise anything the mechanics could get their hands on.

So any color that somehow matched the original color. Primer or not. Or just left bare metal. Some holes might be just patched up with cloth patches like seen on the 190 gear covers.

Other parts were cannibalized and cut to fit and riveted.

The late doras and kurfürsts were real frankensteins.

At least thats what ive gathered. So anything goes.

Best documented example is fw190d9 blue 12.

[Doughguy]

 

Pic of said Blue 12. You can easily make out some different colored patches and the mg housing has a replaced corner in bare metal.

[Doughguy]

Some interesting things ive come across during todays research seassion while getting home.

As ive read the RLM colors are rather chalky and dont chip as much as US counterparts which are rather thick in finish. Also heavy wear as on chipping doesnt seem to occur and appears to be heavily overdone in 3d and modelkits. The RLM colors wore rather down on abbrasion primarily it appears especialy on the wingroots where the usual textures show heavily flaky chipping.

However they indeed are dirty af.

Already collecting ref pics to use as base for getting dirty with this bird.

Pics also show quite well how uneven the panels were and how much warping was going on. Also riveting thats rather uneven.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Doughguy

[Doughguy]

Some more rivetin. Bulk is done. Some adjustments, which unfortunately are a real pita due to the skewed UVW´s...

Means, if i find good ref, i cant really apply it. So the Dora Tex will just be a fancy look-a-like...

Some panels still have to be corrected. Eg, removed the first aid panel/hatch, as i couldnt find it on any ref pics.
Some hinges have to be corrected etc.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Nice rivets .

 

Heavy chipping on German aircraft did happen, it's just one not always finds a pic where it can be clearly seen as most pictures are taken at a person's height level,

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Doughguy]

Thx bud. I guess maybe ive explained myself badly. Chipping happend yes but not as an overall even pattern and not as flaky as often portrayed.

The rlm paint rather wore off so all the walkways used by crew and pilot were rather prone to abrasion. At least judging by the soft appearence of that respective area. This corresponds with what ive read about rlm paints bein rather fine and chalk like. Us paints applied thickly would crack and chip easily after few hours (what ive read).

Same pattern can be observed on the doras albeit less as these were "consumed" rather fast before they could devolp such level of wear telling from the pics ive seen.

But some chipping here and there due to debris etc. Yes. Happens but not how its usually shown in games/models.

More interestingly it appears that also wings of (at least) some doras were puttied like the mustang, however its not entirely clear to me how. Theres accounts of putty bein used on the front half of the wing, but also just several layers of paint (again front half of wing) which in turn just gets sanded down do gain a smooth surface (there goes my riveting....).

Funnily enough that would sort of explain why some doras and antons had the front half of wings painted in the known manner.

Also judging from the pics said abrasions (like on the above pic) found on the walk ways appear rather dull and of bright color and uniform appearance under different lightning. So i come to the conclusion that that respective area has been puttied. Also im pretty sure theres a eff ton of dirt and grime on that area.. But its hard to tell or be sure from observations alone given the fact that late machines werent primed at all or even puttied with a dedicated putty anymore. So basicaly all "chipping" and wear would show bare aluminium.. might also be a production run also... but i cant tell... i dont have any of the dora bibles by crandall and japo so if anyone knows, input is highly appreciated. I wanna do this right (as much as possible given the frame ED provides...) ..

Thx guys.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Doughguy

[Doughguy]

More work... a silver lining... most riveting is done. Canopy and few small things missing.

Added the external power supply and flare chute.

Started working on the control surfaces with their taped appearances.

MG hood has skewed UVWs so i have to omit the horizontal lines on it.. same with the welding lines on the supercharger scoop...
*onecanthavenicethings...*