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F-111 Pig (Aardvark), can it be the next HB project ?


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39 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Only thing that looks like a limitation is the lack of A2A missiles, not even sidewinders.

A Tornado on steroids is a good way to describe the F-111 (similar-ish role), though if we were to compare say, a mid 80s F-111F to a Tornado IDS of similar vintage, then one large advantage is the F-111 gets a targeting pod (the same one featured on the DMAS Phantom we're getting, though a disadvantage is that compared to a German IDS it doesn't get HARM and an AShM). EDIT: And even better, on the F-111F the targeting pod is mounted in the weapons bay and can be rotated into the F-111F fuselage so it won't cause a drag penalty when not in use.

A mid 90s -1 For the F-111F lists AIM-9s (every USAF variant) in the stores limitation charts (really need a -34 to confirm though) and there are images of Sidewinders at least loaded on F-111s:

f-111+aim-9p.jpg


Edited by Northstar98
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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Northstar98:

A Tornado on steroids is a good way to describe the F-111 (similar-ish role), though if we were to compare say, a mid 80s F-111F to a Tornado IDS of similar vintage, then one large advantage is the F-111 gets a targeting pod (the same one featured on the DMAS Phantom we're getting).

A mid 90s -1 For the F-111F lists AIM-9s in the stores limitation diagram and there are images of Sidewinders at least loaded on F-111s:

f-111+aim-9p.jpg

Yup, looks like the Wikipedia specificatoins are a bit off. Apparently theres even 1983 references about shoulder-attachments to the pylons for sidewinders.

I can definitely see allure of an F-111 now.


Edited by Temetre
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15 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Yup, looks like the Wikipedia specificatoins are a bit off. Apparently theres even 1983 references about shoulder-attachments to the pylons for sidewinders.

I can definitely see allure of an F-111 now.

 

It can't turn to save it's life, so if you are actually forced to use them, you are probably dead already. Happily you don't "need" sidewinders on this thing. It will outrun anything, and I mean anything on the deck. If you get in trouble Just go low, and go fast. You will have more fuel and more speed on the deck than pretty much anything else out there, and in the low thick air missiles will have trouble catching up to you. This thing is seriously one of the best bombers ever built, nothing even comes close except the B1 maybe, but that is more of a strategic bomber than a tactical one. 

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And its uniqueness in several aspects (side by side two seater e.G.) certainly doesn't hurt in DCS. 

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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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On 4/17/2023 at 12:37 PM, Temetre said:

That actually sounds pretty fun, like an earlier Tornado or Viggen on steroids. Only thing that looks like a limitation is the lack of A2A missiles, not even sidewinders.

There was an interview with F-111 pilot, he flown two types including F-111F. He said they were flying with Sidewinders regularly and trained to use them against fighters during 1980s.

According to him F-111F obviously wasn't nearly as nimble as F-15 and it couldn't dogfight an Eagle or even slatted F-4E they often trained against, but they were trained to utilize a mistake like problems with finding them at very low altitude, overtaking them, overshooting etc. and punish them with simulated Sidewinder shoot.

According to him the best defense was just to run away since there was no aircraft able to catch F-111 at low level due to very small drag of 72° swept wing, crucial in dense air down low.

F-111F carried Sidewinders on stations 6A and 3A:

main-qimg-5391c0d080d53e0e72267a959062b6b4.jpg

main-qimg-a703cdf00e950160c3733c4f0871967a.jpgF-111-Aardvark.jpg


Edited by bies
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vor einer Stunde schrieb bies:

There was an interview with F-111 pilot, he flown two types including F-111F. He said they were flying with Sidewinders regularly and trained to use them against fighters during 1980s.

Yeh ive found it now, apparently the pylons could just be upgraded to take sidewinders. 

Its probably not a big deal, but I just like the ability to defend myself. Just a minor threat to make enemies think twice.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Bananabrai:

One thing I don't like about the 111, afaik the wings don't sweep any more if you put something on them.
(the wing pylons cannot sweep)

That actually made me do a double check, because that would be such a critical design flaw. The entire concept of the plane is a) carry a lot of bombs and b) sweep wings for best performance.

The Tornado has swiveling Pylons that change direction with the wing sweep. For the F-111, apparently the outer pylons dont swivel, so they can only be used in one static wing position. That seems like a pretty big limitation to its payload, only 2 pylons if you want wing sweeping?

Fun fact, the F-14 got around this problem by mounting its payload on the fuselage and shoulders in front of the moving wings. Had the problem that the "moving wing" was only a fraction of the planes lift area, however.

edit: So F-111 can carry 12x 500 pd bombs on the inner pylons. Then 12x more on the outer ones; apparently it can drop the outer pylons after expending the bombs, and start sweeping the wing?

I guess its not that bad if you are reliant on unguided weapons anyway, which seem to require less clearance usually, but still a big limitation. Swept wing was still a big challenge to do right I suppose.


Edited by Temetre
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On 4/20/2023 at 11:46 AM, Temetre said:

That actually made me do a double check, because that would be such a critical design flaw. The entire concept of the plane is a) carry a lot of bombs and b) sweep wings for best performance.

The Tornado has swiveling Pylons that change direction with the wing sweep. For the F-111, apparently the outer pylons dont swivel, so they can only be used in one static wing position. That seems like a pretty big limitation to its payload, only 2 pylons if you want wing sweeping?

Fun fact, the F-14 got around this problem by mounting its payload on the fuselage and shoulders in front of the moving wings. Had the problem that the "moving wing" was only a fraction of the planes lift area, however.

edit: So F-111 can carry 12x 500 pd bombs on the inner pylons. Then 12x more on the outer ones; apparently it can drop the outer pylons after expending the bombs, and start sweeping the wing?

I guess its not that bad if you are reliant on unguided weapons anyway, which seem to require less clearance usually, but still a big limitation. Swept wing was still a big challenge to do right I suppose.

 

It very rarely (if ever) carried any ordnance on the outermost pylons. It "could" do it but this was rarely used, since it made the jet dangerously heavy and lowered it's operational radius. Even with just the two innermost pylons on each wing, which could by the way rotate, and it's internal bomb bay this jet could carry a lot of ordnance. Why risk the life of the crew when you can just add another jet to the package and do the mission more efficiently and safely? 


Edited by Lurker
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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Lurker:

It very rarely (if ever) carried any ordnance on the outermost pylons. It "could" do it but this was rarely used, since it made the jet dangerously heavy and lowered it's operational radius. Even with just the two innermost pylons on each wing, which could by the way rotate, and it's internal bomb bay this jet could carry a lot of ordnance. Why risk the life of the crew when you can just add another jet to the package and do the mission more efficiently and safely?  

And thats of course correct. I wasnt convinced about no swiveling pylons, so I doublechecked. But then got confused because there are pictures of so many different wing configurations. Everything from 2-8 pylons. Specifically what mislead me was reading "the outermost pylons cant rotate", which Ive seen a few times besides pictures with 4 total pylons.

But in reality its of course 2 rotating pylons PER wing, which is clearly a ton without the internal bay. Probably doesnt even need more than 2 pylons on normal missions, considering the 6x MK-82 mounts seem quite popular.

I know this is probably nonsensical for anything realistic, but I cant deny this looks kinda fun:

http://www.adf-serials.com.au/gallery3/var/albums/F111/F-111-A8-146/F_111_with_48_Mk82_bombs.jpg

Could they actually carry that many bombs in a worst case scenario? Kinda like how the 6x Maverick of the F-16 is a worst case scenario loadout.


Edited by Temetre
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On 4/21/2023 at 4:33 AM, peterbrownbyu said:

Anyone have any idea what this means? It got brought up on the Heatblur discord a day or two agod3c542e9ba734a7e14a3931d8c9ce1c7.jpg


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Who is Relics? I've tried finding any info or hints of an F-111 in development but so far....zilch. 

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On 4/27/2023 at 5:55 AM, Lurker said:

Who is Relics? I've tried finding any info or hints of an F-111 in development but so far....zilch. 

Relics is one of the Airplane Simulation Company devs working on the C-130J.

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On 4/17/2023 at 2:14 PM, Lurker said:

It can't turn to save it's life, so if you are actually forced to use them, you are probably dead already. 

I don’t think the aim-9 were meant for dueling - more like mutual protection, so you can shoot a Mig off your wingman’s tail, while you both are trying to disengage. I’d be surprised if they ever carried more than 2 Sidewinders on operations.

“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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Am 29.4.2023 um 13:53 schrieb Bozon:

I don’t think the aim-9 were meant for dueling - more like mutual protection, so you can shoot a Mig off your wingman’s tail, while you both are trying to disengage. I’d be surprised if they ever carried more than 2 Sidewinders on operations.

Yeh, an aircraft with missiles is fundamentally more dangerous than one without. Gotta consider that even when on the offense.


Edited by Temetre
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Conspiracy theory alert: I think ASC (the company behind the C-130) is doing the F-111

A couple months back, people got on the ASC discord speculating / asking for updates about upcoming releases etc. Then one of the devs, someone_somewhere, drops this in the chat

image.png

I went to the Q&A video in question and at 1:33:00, he starts talking about the F-111 and how their flight model expert is the last person to go through F-111C training in the RAAF. He repeatedly says that developing the F-111 is "an interesting idea" and that he can't say more


Edited by peterbrownbyu
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On 4/20/2023 at 9:33 PM, peterbrownbyu said:

Anyone have any idea what this means? It got brought up on the Heatblur discord a day or two agod3c542e9ba734a7e14a3931d8c9ce1c7.jpg

 

3 hours ago, peterbrownbyu said:

Conspiracy theory alert: I think ASC (the company behind the C-130) is doing the F-111

A couple months back, people got on the ASC discord speculating / asking for updates about upcoming releases etc. Then one of the devs, someone_somewhere, drops this in the chat

image.png

I went to the Q&A video in question and at 1:33:00, he starts talking about the F-111 and how their flight model expert is the last person to go through F-111C training in the RAAF. He repeatedly says that developing the F-111 is "an interesting idea" and that he can't say more

Well since Relics is also part of the ASC team, this does create an interesting coincidence.  While Heatblur does already have a lot of experience with two-seat aircraft and the TF-30's they already have a lot on their plate at the moment.  On the otherhand, ASC hasn't even released the base C-130 yet, not to mention the MC and KC variants so if they are in fact doing the 111 I wouldn't expect it for a long time.

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1 hour ago, Stackup said:

ASC hasn't even released the base C-130 yet, not to mention the MC and KC variants so if they are in fact doing the 111 I wouldn't expect it for a long time.

I'm in it for the long haul, as long as its being worked on that's better than nothing

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1 hour ago, Temetre said:

Btw, Im really surprised how many DCS planes there are in development currently. What happened, did everyone just start to make sim planes during Corona? 😄 

3rd party devs are staking their claims. Announcements are cheap - the actual releases rate is still glacial. Understandable, given the work that goes into a module, but still.

I am pretty sure that by the end of the decade some of the announced modules would still be in EA status or less.

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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Bozon:

3rd party devs are staking their claims. Announcements are cheap - the actual releases rate is still glacial. Understandable, given the work that goes into a module, but still.

I am pretty sure that by the end of the decade some of the announced modules would still be in EA status or less.

Thats fair, I guess theres a lot of higher risk developments as well?

Guess we can be happy that F-4E and Eurofighter are being done by a rather reliable 3rd party developer though. Honestly, I would have no trust at all in the idea of simulating an aircraft as modern as the EF, if it wasnt Heatblur.


Edited by Temetre
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/3/2023 at 8:09 PM, Temetre said:

Guess we can be happy that F-4E and Eurofighter are being done by a rather reliable 3rd party developer though. Honestly, I would have no trust at all in the idea of simulating an aircraft as modern as the EF, if it wasnt Heatblur.

Heatblur's work is second to none, but it's not Heatblur, but TrueGrit making EF and having as access to the data. Heatblur just works with them, help them, having experience with DCS and solid coders knowing how to work with dev kit.

Heatblur was not allowed to make fighter Viggen variant due to some classified data. And JA-37 Viggen is deep Cold War machine.

F-111 being prepared for developement would be a great news. Obviously Airplane Simulation Company ddin't release any module for DCS yet. Their quality will be visible only after releasing their C-130.

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13 minutes ago, bies said:

And JA-37 Viggen is deep Cold War machine.

I actually wonder which variant they were looking at. JA-37 is one thing, but they were upgraded in the 90s and served to 2005. There might've been something about the avionics, particularly upgraded ones, that was sensitive. Well, either that or Skyflash integration, the Brits are notoriously unwilling to release details of their tech.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb bies:

Heatblur's work is second to none, but it's not Heatblur, but TrueGrit making EF and having as access to the data. Heatblur just works with them, help them, having experience with DCS and solid coders knowing how to work with dev kit.

If I understand correclty, then Heatblur actually bought up TrueGrit. So Id expect the EF development to be more integrated, and HB is putting its name on that plane (and its reputation on the line). Also probably gonna be integrated into HBs development frameworks theyve set up with the F-4.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb bies:

Heatblur was not allowed to make fighter Viggen variant due to some classified data. And JA-37 Viggen is deep Cold War machine.

F-111 being prepared for developement would be a great news. Obviously Airplane Simulation Company ddin't release any module for DCS yet. Their quality will be visible only after releasing their C-130.

Interesting to hear that about the Fighter Viggen tho, that explains a few things. I wonder how long that denial is ago tho. With the F18/F16/F15E, let alone EF, the required standards must've changed, they mustve gotten more confident in modern modules based on limited documentation? Maybe HB could make a fighter variant these days. Tho they seem to have their hands full, with F-14 not finished, F-4 incoming, EF2000 in works. Now they even announced an A6 intruder. And of course even the JA Viggen still being EA.

Now my mind is working tho... what if Heatblur made an F-14D and JA Viggen as buyable addons or so? 😄 

 


Edited by Temetre
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