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DCS Newsletter discussion 2nd December 2022 - DCS 2.8 Multithreading | SATAL 2023


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DCS Newsletter discussion 2nd December 2022 - DCS 2.8 Multithreading | SATAL 2023
 

 

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17 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Now that was an interesting update   let's hope "next year" means early next year.

It will very much depend on testing, but we will let you know in future updates. 

thanks

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Right now multithreading is the most expected item for me in DCS. Since I can wholly enjoy it with good graphics except in multi-player where everything slows down.

If only the optimization is so good to keep MP at the same level of SP it would be awesome, maybe I could even crank graphics higher if the Cpu can better handle graphics calls with this re-architecture.

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Exactly this. Such a major change will need thorough testing and I wouldn't be too surprised, if it takes a couple iterations in Openbeta to go through that transition. We need to manage our expectations. Fingers crossed.

It is definitely a major change to a better ressource usage, but at the same time a massive change to the core of DCS.

Looking forward to this, though. It is the way DCS needs to go and keep up with the hardware.

Thanks for the info and heads up. 🙂


Edited by shagrat
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Less excited about the news more relieved  that ED have said something officially after 14 months. Not holding out for a 2023 release though. 

The news wording is soaked in caution when it comes to timescales. Understandably so. It would seem the tone of the October 21 statement was a shadow over optimistic in terms what had yet to be completed.  

And this is only one facet of what ultimately needs to happen in regards to Vulkan. Whilst very welcome and undoubtedly an important and hard won step, the ultimate destination likely remains years away. 
 

Consider my expectations  managed. 

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40 minutes ago, Boosterdog said:

Less excited about the news more relieved  that ED have said something officially after 14 months. Not holding out for a 2023 release though. 

The news wording is soaked in caution when it comes to timescales. Understandably so. It would seem the tone of the October 21 statement was a shadow over optimistic in terms what had yet to be completed.  

And this is only one facet of what ultimately needs to happen in regards to Vulkan. Whilst very welcome and undoubtedly an important and hard won step, the ultimate destination likely remains years away. 
 

Consider my expectations  managed. 

Exactly this.

ED rouse strong enthusiasm amongst fans, but as long as the development result is not available OR not successfull (=100% FUNCTIONING PROPERLY) any vague statements unfortunatelly keep a pretty poor lip service. The German football team says hello... 


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33 minutes ago, Cab said:

"Stay tuned for upcoming releases."

This has a decidedly optimistic tone to my ear.

 

Hmm perhaps. But I’d say being told in December 21 by an ED staffer that I’d be better waiting for MC before upgrading my 1080 sounded  pretty optimistic too. Like “in the know” optimistic. 

Thankfully I ignored the advice  


Edited by Boosterdog

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I got the tone from this that this is less a multi-threaded update and more a split threaded upgrade. (splitting the logic and graphics threads from a main thread to split threads for each, neither of which could task multiple threads with higher workloads).

Not that I'm not truly looking forward to this upgrade as I've been CPU limited for a while, but I wonder with better 4k+ VR headsets on the horizon if we won't be faced with the same upper limit very quickly if we only have a single Graphical thread.

Even with the logical thread, this seems like a clear candidate for true multi-threading.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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10 minutes ago, trevoC said:

I got the tone from this that this is less a multi-threaded update and more a split threaded upgrade. (splitting the logic and graphics threads from a main thread to split threads for each, neither of which could task multiple threads with higher workloads).

Not that I'm not truly looking forward to this upgrade as I've been CPU limited for a while, but I wonder with better 4k+ VR headsets on the horizon if we won't be faced with the same upper limit very quickly if we only have a single Graphical thread.

Even with the logical thread, this seems like a clear candidate for true multi-threading.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Tbh I dont think that the problem lies in the graphics thread but the fact before, when that and logical where the same, heavy missions would clog the core altogher, limiting both graphics and logical performance.

Making the graphics thread independent, means that it wont be affected by the simulation. The graphics calculation itself doesnt need much in terms of cpu anyways, since the heavy lifting is done by the gpu. At the same time, the logical can be further split as needed once testing reveals new necessities.

And by spliting the graphics thread, also means that its a step further into making the architecture ready for the new api = vulkan.

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I'm absolutely limited (as would most) by the graphics thread. Yes, you are correct, in a heavy mission, the logical calculations saturates the main thread, but in a free flight scenario the upper fps limit is bound by the draw calls to the gpu that the cpu can handle. Graphics are usually limited by the CPU making the appropriate calls to the gpu. This is why new engines allow these calls to circumnavigate the cpu all together and make the calls directly.

This isn't a problem for high end 4k 2d, but VR users are most likely (like myself) bound by the number of CPU calls the single core is able to make which is only exacerbated by a heavy mission load.

my 3090 rarely exceeds 70% utilization in VR.

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I think after re-reading your comment we are sort of talking about 2 ends to the same problem.

You are talking more about reducing the fps drop during heavy missions (which I agree would be improved by the split programming loops) while I'm talking more about the total increase in fps for VR users to take advantage of their GPU's

In my scenario although removal of any amount of processing from the graphics thread will help, in a free flight scenario for instance as a benchmark, I don't think it will help as much as you might think. Regardless of how much it might help, I'm more worried about hitting that upper bound again very quickly as 4k+ VR easily doubles current requirements from a G2 headset scenario which puts us in the same boat very quickly.

The answer really is bypassing the draw calls IMO. I'm guessing from what I've heard that this is not the vulkan update, but rather a core re-write which might act as a band-aid for the time being until vulkan.

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In the best Christmas spirit. 

One step forward is one less back....

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The initial release of Multithreading support will contain a fully reworked engine including preparation of the graphical frame and the separation of the graphical and logical parts onto two independent threads. 

Can this be elaborated on? Specifically, the bolded part, does this mean it's not true multithreaded physics and rendering? This statement implies all you did was to split off rendering and physics onto their own threads, with both systems remaining serialized and bound to a single core, just now independent of one another. This is progress, but much less than I hoped for, especially after such a long time. Now, I know even this is a big job starting out from thoroughly singlethreaded code, but DCS can't afford to stop there. Modern CPUs have 8 cores to work with, top end ones have 16 and even my ancient 4770 has four. That won't make DCS use 100% of my CPU, just 50% instead of 25%, possibly a bit more if the thread where everything else sits starts doing stuff. In 2023, it's not enough. Three threads (four if you count audio, which really isn't any kind of bottleneck) is only acceptable as a stepping stone toward a truly scalable, parallelized architecture. 

The reason is, physics dictate that without extreme cooling solutions or a technological revolution on par with invention of the microchip, single core CPU performance will not significantly improve (unless water cooling becomes standard, without OC they likely won't breach 6GHz). Any further visual improvements will degrade performance, as will the advance of display technology, unless advantage can be taken of a rising number of cores. So this is a must.

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I love it when designers open up giving us insights to what lies ahead.  Doing a quick search through these forums show early discussions about multi-threading back in 2005 just as dual-processor chips were hitting the streets.  Commentors suggested then that it would require a complete re-write of the LOMAC code itself a development of the 1995 SU-27 Flanker product.  That's 30 years of commitment to making and supporting an amazing product through all kinds of changing times, people etc.  Kindest regards to all those people that have helped along the way!   Fantastic news!


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Great news .

Suggestion:- another “next year” news item.  ED seems to feel the need to throw out arbitrary news with arbitrary dates that are never met.

Seems by now you’d stop doing this unless you like like the constant “2 weeks” banter as a mocking of how silly your dates are.

We’ve all grown old of this.  So how about you just wait until it’s done and then say “next patch we will introduce multicore” and not continue to make the same mistake over and over again.

Just 2 cents from someone who spent $6000 this year to play your game :)

 

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