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F1CG and it's four Sidewinders


Bremspropeller
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Chers gang,

seems like the four Sidewinder layout was made available in the mid 80s, when Greece decided it wanted more missiles on their F1s.

Looks like the aircraft was initially delivered without any R530 or Super 530 capability whatsoever and the radar even lacked some illuminator features which would have had to be reintroduced when Greece sought to upgrade their F1s to Sparrow-capability during an earlier projected programme, which faltered.

How did the outboard wing Sidewinders get integrated? Seems to me - at least from this pit builder's site - the stores-select buttons were arranged in the same way as in the other F1Cs:

https://www.modellingnews.gr/el/editorial/ενα-mirage-f1cg-ξαναζεί-μετά-από-15-χρόνια

Hence, I guess the lefternmost were for the tips and the second lerfternmost were for the wing-Sidewinderst, instead of the 530s. How would those Sidewinders be priorized by the weapon computer?

30137740757_f93e99a782_o.jpg

Was it left-first/ seeker locked first, as it is with the CE, or was there any other type of priorization? Could all Sidewinders be selected at the same time and would there be any priorization between wing-stations and tips? Also, could the Sidewinders also all be brought forward with the missile override switch (C+M or whatever it's called)?

1095841-large.jpg

Now, why am I asking all this. Quite simple: I'm really liking the idea of having four Sidewinders. I think this option could be quite feasible and it might be rather simple to implement (while appeasing the purists):

- either have a checkmark in the mission builder that enables four winders at the cost of (Super) 530 capability

- or have the outboard wing winders and 530s be exclusionary loadouts, like the centerline and wing 530s already are

I think it's a relatively simple modification, enabling more scenarios while not costing too much credibility in the realism-department.

 

Bonus question: What kind of bomb-racks are those on the inboard wing and do they come with fuel als their voluminosity might suggest?

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Greece-Air-Force/Dassault-Mirage-F1CG/1494821/L

1492071-large.jpg

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The only one who can answer all this questions is Panthir who flew the CG's. 

Rapid gun wouldn't select the Sidewinders on the CG's, but commanded only a boresight close combat radar mode. The missile  needed to be selected through the respective button on the armament control panel. 

Source = 

Regarding the Sidewinder prioritization, according to the listed article the local industry developed a   system that selected automatically the Sidewinder that provided the best lock signal (accordingly to the position of the F1 and the bandit). 

https://defencereview.gr/hellenic-air-force-mirage-fleet-three-generations-of-modern-electronics-and-weapons/

 

Personally, i can dream that Aerges would develop the CG subvariant with the early radar scope (that could find also in the CZ). 


Edited by jaguara5
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  • 2 weeks later...

For me I immediately skipped this module when I saw that we wouldn't be able to take four Sidewinders.  Learned my lesson with the F5E that is forever stuck with two.

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2 hours ago, gavagai said:

For me I immediately skipped this module when I saw that we wouldn't be able to take four Sidewinders.  Learned my lesson with the F5E that is forever stuck with two.

Only Greece (F1CG) and Ecuador (F1JA) had a version that could carry four heaters. South Africa seems to have done yt least trials. It's not an overly common loadout.

The 'winders on the outboard wings do come at the cost of the SARHs at the inboard wings. No such thing as free lunch.

So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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The Hellenic Air Force had modified F-1CG (Mod 1TY) in order to carry 4 heaters (Magic or Sidewinders). Rapid gun had to do only with radar lock in dogfight and was avtivating GUN mode in HUD (it was not activating automatically any missile). In order to be able to fire any of the four misssiles you had to have the Armament Master ON, IR Missile Selection Button pressed, GUN fuze. The best locked missile was fired by pressing the misslile button. If I remember well there was a delay of 0,75 second. 


Edited by Panthir
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19 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Only Greece (F1CG) and Ecuador (F1JA) had a version that could carry four heaters. South Africa seems to have done yt least trials. It's not an overly common loadout.

The 'winders on the outboard wings do come at the cost of the SARHs at the inboard wings. No such thing as free lunch.

I was already aware when I made up my mind.  If they allow 4 heaters I might change it. 😉

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1 hour ago, gavagai said:

I was already aware when I made up my mind.  If they allow 4 heaters I might change it. 😉

Technically you can already carry four heaters, though - I should have phrased that differently above 😁

Also, the F1 is generally a _much_ more capable aircraft than the F-5. Starts with loadouts, (Super)530s, the Radar, performace, etc.

Skipping the module because it can only carry two *heaters* is a bit narrow-minded. Especially when the module is actually four modules in one and with the next big update we'll get an AAR capable INS-bird. Not even talking about the upcoming two-seater and the TV-screen model for the whizz-kids.

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It is a bit narrow minded of me.  What can I say?  I like pvp combat and the opposition is sweaty.  If I were a super ace I could get by with just two sidewinders. 😉

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3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Also, the F1 is generally a _much_ more capable aircraft than the F-5. Starts with loadouts, (Super)530s, the Radar, performace, etc.

How so? I'll admit I'm a lot more of a dumb fighter jock, but I've noticed that in A2A fights, as the F-5 I tend to trash the Mirage (*especially* if things reach the merge), and as the Mirage, my own results aren't much better. I've found the radar to be spotty at best and difficult to use, which renders the 530s of questionable utility. While a full A2A loadout does contain more missiles, until you ditch your external tank(s) and missile(s), the F-5 actually has comparable performance. (Hell, even with a ditched tank and 2 R530s, you struggle to break mach). BFM is best not even discussed, as the F-5 will simply wipe the floor with the Mirage in that sphere.


When it comes to A2G loadouts, the carriage options are remarkably similar. 4 wing pylons that carry rockets or bombs, and the capability to mount more bombs on the centerline. The overall utility seems remarkably similar to me. They carry similar weapons, and have similar limitations. Bombing by tables and/or based on feel. How much does it really matter if the stick of high-drag bombs you're salvoing off is 6x400kg as opposed to 7x500lbs (presuming wing tanks)? The main exception is the Durandal, but that weapon is kinda a one-trick pony.

 

The F1, critically, also has MUCH worse situational awareness. Buggy as it is, the F-5's RWR is leagues ahead of the picture it helps paint of the battlefield when compared to the F1. While the F-5 doesn't have *amazing* rear visibility, in all other directions it's simply excellent. Meanwhile the F1 has high walls, massive pillars, and a nice thick canopy bow that seems designed to ensure you either can't see the bandit sneaking up, or lose them in the middle of a fight.

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If pvp and figuring out who can best hide behind a ridge longest is your thing then you might have a point.

If you're more into simming and less into gaming, then your mileage will deviate quite a bit.

Let's take things apart:

4 minutes ago, DJBiscuit1818 said:

I'll admit I'm a lot more of a dumb fighter jock, but I've noticed that in A2A fights, as the F-5 I tend to trash the Mirage (*especially* if things reach the merge), and as the Mirage, my own results aren't much better.

That may or may not be the case. The F1 is as good as both the F-5 and the MiG-21. It suffers in the T/W against the 21, but it can go slow pretty well. It should also be able to out-accelerate the F-5. I have flown mostly against a MiG-21, so I can't vouch too much for it's effectiveness against the F-5. Given my experience in the F-5 vs the MiG, I'd say the Mirage and F-5 should be close enough.

When's been the last time you've seen M2 in an F-5?

6 minutes ago, DJBiscuit1818 said:

I've found the radar to be spotty at best and difficult to use, which renders the 530s of questionable utility.

It performs well enough to shoot reliably somebody in the face at 10+ miles (provided you'll have the S530F). You'll struggle to do that in an F-5.

8 minutes ago, DJBiscuit1818 said:

While a full A2A loadout does contain more missiles, until you ditch your external tank(s) and missile(s), the F-5 actually has comparable performance. (Hell, even with a ditched tank and 2 R530s, you struggle to break mach). BFM is best not even discussed, as the F-5 will simply wipe the floor with the Mirage in that sphere.

Why would you take a tank if you're up PvP against F-5s? You have almost 2000l more gas internally than in an F-5. Why would you take two missiles when going PvP? Squeeze off one and you'll have a weird-a$$ asymmetry. Just take the center missile or leave them home altogether.

11 minutes ago, DJBiscuit1818 said:

When it comes to A2G loadouts, the carriage options are remarkably similar. 4 wing pylons that carry rockets or bombs, and the capability to mount more bombs on the centerline. The overall utility seems remarkably similar to me.

The F1 can carry the 36-shot SNEB "F1" canisters. That's qite a bit of oomph over the 19-shot 2.75ers the F-5 carries.

13 minutes ago, DJBiscuit1818 said:

How much does it really matter if the stick of high-drag bombs you're salvoing off is 6x400kg as opposed to 7x500lbs (presuming wing tanks)? The main exception is the Durandal, but that weapon is kinda a one-trick pony.

Doesn't matter that much, but you can deliver that load faster and farther. Plus you get to have a ground mapping radar to play with, so you can scare yourself and do that stuff at night.

16 minutes ago, DJBiscuit1818 said:

The F1, critically, also has MUCH worse situational awareness. Buggy as it is, the F-5's RWR is leagues ahead of the picture it helps paint of the battlefield when compared to the F1. While the F-5 doesn't have *amazing* rear visibility, in all other directions it's simply excellent. Meanwhile the F1 has high walls, massive pillars, and a nice thick canopy bow that seems designed to ensure you either can't see the bandit sneaking up, or lose them in the middle of a fight.

Some people like a challenge. I also like the autopilot. Having an ILS is a good bonus. So is having dedicated ECM and expendable CM pods, which we'll get. Did I mention the INS and AAR probe?

 

I'd love to see the four winders loadout, but trashing the module because it doesn't come with the feature is a bit...narrow minded.

So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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20 hours ago, DJBiscuit1818 said:

How so? I'll admit I'm a lot more of a dumb fighter jock, but I've noticed that in A2A fights, as the F-5 I tend to trash the Mirage (*especially* if things reach the merge), and as the Mirage, my own results aren't much better. I've found the radar to be spotty at best and difficult to use, which renders the 530s of questionable utility. While a full A2A loadout does contain more missiles, until you ditch your external tank(s) and missile(s), the F-5 actually has comparable performance. (Hell, even with a ditched tank and 2 R530s, you struggle to break mach). BFM is best not even discussed, as the F-5 will simply wipe the floor with the Mirage in that sphere.


When it comes to A2G loadouts, the carriage options are remarkably similar. 4 wing pylons that carry rockets or bombs, and the capability to mount more bombs on the centerline. The overall utility seems remarkably similar to me. They carry similar weapons, and have similar limitations. Bombing by tables and/or based on feel. How much does it really matter if the stick of high-drag bombs you're salvoing off is 6x400kg as opposed to 7x500lbs (presuming wing tanks)? The main exception is the Durandal, but that weapon is kinda a one-trick pony.

 

The F1, critically, also has MUCH worse situational awareness. Buggy as it is, the F-5's RWR is leagues ahead of the picture it helps paint of the battlefield when compared to the F1. While the F-5 doesn't have *amazing* rear visibility, in all other directions it's simply excellent. Meanwhile the F1 has high walls, massive pillars, and a nice thick canopy bow that seems designed to ensure you either can't see the bandit sneaking up, or lose them in the middle of a fight.

He is right. F-1 had to get rid off semi-active heavy load out before merge otherwise F-5 will dominate the battle. In this context a short range pre-merge sequential Fox-1 (closer than 3-5 nm) can be either lethal or ensure a premium offensive position. In reality, an equally loaded (2 or 4 heaters with CL or not) was by far superior than F-5. The only thing that you have to be very careful was to take always the advantage of vertical plane manouvers and to avoid a high speed overtake approach for guns, cause F-5 could very easily lead you to overshoot by performing a high-g over the top manouver. 


Edited by Panthir
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On 12/19/2022 at 12:43 PM, Panthir said:

He is right. F-1 had to get rid off semi-active heavy load out before merge otherwise F-5 will dominate the battle. In this context a short range pre-merge sequential Fox-1 (closer than 3-5 nm) can be either lethal or ensure a premium offensive position. In reality, an equally loaded (2 or 4 heaters with CL or not) was by far superior than F-5. The only thing that you have to be very careful was to take always the advantage of vertical plane manouvers and to avoid a high speed overtake approach for guns, cause F-5 could very easily lead you to overshoot by performing a high-g over the top manouver. 

 

My two cents on this from a PVP perspective. The 530's are kind absurdly over modeled at least based on their actual historical performance. But thats an ED problem with many missiles. But if you are doing PVP with the mirage I find taking the EM and using it for the close range head on shot is pretty effective. 

For BFM, I think the vast majority of F1 pilots are being stupid and take drop tanks. Like you literally want to be at like 50-70% fuel when entering the merge not 100% you are vastly too heavy. I honestly prefer being at about 50% or less. Vs the mig he has a better TWR and will out accelerate you and regain energy far faster, so you have to be smart and hopefully try to kill him quick cuz you will likely loose an extended fight. VS the F5 its a more even fight if you are light IMO, I try to use vertical as much as I can but its down to pilot skill. Luckily on ECW there are plenty of low skill F5's. 

 

 

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