F-4E INS alignment duration + nav system question

[Leviathan667]

Hi, does anyone know anything about the following:

1. How long does it take for the F-4E INS alignment to complete?
2. How many waypoints can the F-4E Nav system handle?
3. Can the nav system manage offset points for loft bombing runs?
4. Can the nav system calculate ToT and show cues on the HUD?

Edited December 17, 2022 by Leviathan667

[Lieuie]

I don't think the phantom had a HUD. More like a gun sight similar to the F-5.

The alignment time should be in line with all the other INS equipped aircraft, so around 8 minutes. 

I don't have answers for the rest.

[Heinlein]

1. from what I get the phantom don't "align" because it only have simple analogue computer and only require a warmup (3 min I think)
2 unknown. I believe two before the DMAS update. 
3. no idea. Doubtful
4. The phantom don't have a hud. your direction is seen on the nav computer. The phantom only have a simple gunsight similar to the one on the F-5

Edited December 17, 2022 by Heinlein

[Lieuie]

The flight manual states an alignment procedure although it doesn't clarify the duration. And it's operation seems to be pretty much in line with other INS systems we have gotten accustomed to. As far as waypoints are concerned from what I understand there are two available although I am not certain on that.

[QuiGon]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:10 PM, Heinlein said:

1. from what I get the phantom don't "align" because it only have simple analogue computer and only require a warmup (3 min I think)

That's wrong. It has a normal INS system that needs about the same time to align as the INS of other aircraft we have in DCS (~8 min).

[WinterH]

On 12/17/2022 at 8:18 PM, Leviathan667 said:

Can the nav system manage offset points for loft bombing runs?

It maynot be exactly an offset coordinate option, but I seem to recall at least one blind bombing mode with radar from when I was looking at the manuals a yearish ago when the module was revealed.

As for the HUD, like others said, F-4E doesn't really have what we'd call a HUD, it's more a reflector sight like in the F-5. As far as I recall, you need to look at other displays/gauges for your navigation.

[JayTSX]

Probably a bit off topic but:

Can the Hud show a target diamond? Because it kinda sounds like it'll have just a gun piper like the F-5 and no further functionality. I expected something alike an F-14s hud with some information about selected weapon and atleast a target marker for easier intercept.

Given that the F-4 is more suited for intercepting compared to the F-5 it seems logical to add this functionality.

[Northstar98]

25 minutes ago, JayTSX said:

Probably a bit off topic but:

Can the Hud show a target diamond? Because it kinda sounds like it'll have just a gun piper like the F-5 and no further functionality. I expected something alike an F-14s hud with some information about selected weapon and atleast a target marker for easier intercept.

Given that the F-4 is more suited for intercepting compared to the F-5 it seems logical to add this functionality.

Nope, though you do have a C-scope display in STT where the UFC would be in other aircraft.

The gunsight only provides an aiming reticle, a range scale and roll tabs - that's it. Though it does at least provide the CCIP aimpoint (both immediate and delayed releases) similar to the F-16 in the DMAS version.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Northstar98

[QuiGon]

26 minutes ago, JayTSX said:

Probably a bit off topic but:

Can the Hud show a target diamond? Because it kinda sounds like it'll have just a gun piper like the F-5 and no further functionality. I expected something alike an F-14s hud with some information about selected weapon and atleast a target marker for easier intercept.

Given that the F-4 is more suited for intercepting compared to the F-5 it seems logical to add this functionality.

There is no HUD!!! It's just a gun pipper / reflex sight, like in the F-5. You gotta work with manual depression settings when bombing stuff, unless there is some CCIP/CCRP functionality in the radar, which I'm not sure of. But even then it probably won't show on the gunsight, but on the radar screen itself, probably similar to the A-4E mod that we have for DCS.

Edited December 30, 2022 by QuiGon

[Northstar98]

9 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

You gotta work with manual depression settings when bombing stuff, unless there is some CCIP/CCRP functionality in the radar, which I'm not sure of.

It's manual depression for the DSCG version but the DMAS version has the reticle be the CCIP aim point (with both immediate and delayed release, the latter can kinda be thought of as CCRP).

For the DSCG version, it's lead computing in AA guns and in just about every other mode it's boresighted to either the fuselage reference line or radara boresight line in elevation and caged at 0° in azimuth (though in Dive Toss/Dive Laydown/Laydown bombing modes you get drift).

Edited December 30, 2022 by Northstar98

[Fromthedeep]

14 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

It's just a gun pipper / reflex sight, like in the F-5.

Even the old DSCG version will have dive toss, it's a much more sophisticated ground attack platform than the F-5. 

[QuiGon]

14 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

Even the old DSCG version will have dive toss, it's a much more sophisticated ground attack platform than the F-5. 

Yes, but that doesn't show in the gun sight or does it? You won't have CCRP/CCIP indications there, but instead you have to work with the radar display or not?

  

21 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

It's manual depression for the DSCG version but the DMAS version has the reticle be the CCIP aim point (with both immediate and delayed release, the latter can kinda be thought of as CCRP).

Oh, ok, that's something!
Do we get the DMAS version?

 

21 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

For the DSCG version, it's lead computing in AA guns

That's something that even the F-86 sabre gunsight does.

Edited December 30, 2022 by QuiGon

[Fromthedeep]

1 minute ago, QuiGon said:

Yes, but that doesn't show in the gun sight or does it? You won't have CCRP/CCIP indications there, but instead have to work with the radar display or not?

You'd get roll/drift indication tabs and an analog range scale.

[Northstar98]

On 12/30/2022 at 12:23 PM, Fromthedeep said:

Even the old DSCG version will have dive toss, it's a much more sophisticated ground attack platform than the F-5. 

Yes, by the looks of it the sight is used to designate targets in dive toss/dive laydown/laydown bombing modes.

In dive toss, the sight is drift stabilised, but caged at the radar boresight line (so kinda like DTOS in the F-16, but you can't move the reticle); in dive laydown same thing for elevation but the sight just shows roll. In laydown, the sight is pitch stabilised (set manually) in elevation and is drift stabilised in azimuth.

It should be noted that in dive toss and laydown manual inputs are required (drag index and release advance for dive toss, release range and advance for laydown).

Edited January 5, 2023 by Northstar98

[Northstar98]

6 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Oh, ok, that's something!

Do we get the DMAS version?

We're supposedly getting 2 versions - a DSCG version from the mid 70s and a DMAS version which could hypothetically cover the late 70s up to the early to mid-ish 90s.

6 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

That's something that even the F-86 sabre gunsight does.

Yes and that's the only thing the sight does in any A/A mode. In the rest of them it's caged at the radar boresight line at 0° azimuth.

[WinterH]

AFAIR, going by the manuals, DSCG also has some automated bombing modes via an oldie analog bombing computer, but from what I remember it looked like it's almost more trouble than its worth. I recall one CCRP-esque mode that resembled A-4Es bombing computer but more involved, as we had to enter bomb ballistic information too, and a sort of "radar bombing mode" that seemed kind of like a waypoint based thing if I recall correctly.

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

Do we get the DMAS version?

We'll first get a DSCG ('72-74ish birds), and later at some point DMAS too (early to maybe mid 80s).

[Jaakov]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

AFAIR, going by the manuals, DSCG also has some automated bombing modes via an oldie analog bombing computer, but from what I remember it looked like it's almost more trouble than its worth. I recall one CCRP-esque mode that resembled A-4Es bombing computer but more involved, as we had to enter bomb ballistic information too, and a sort of "radar bombing mode" that seemed kind of like a waypoint based thing if I recall correctly.

We'll first get a DSCG ('72-74ish birds), and later at some point DMAS too (early to maybe mid 80s).

I thought that we're getting both versions upon initial release...

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jaakov

[WinterH]

No, afaik DSCG will be the first, and DMAS will be later on.

[SgtPappy]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:55 AM, QuiGon said:

That's wrong. It has a normal INS system that needs about the same time to align as the INS of other aircraft we have in DCS (~8 min).

For QRA jets, are their systems aligned, then the kept on with, say external power, until the jet is needed?

[Backwards]

I've only worked with F-16's IRL, but I believe it's mostly similar in the F-4, but when the jets are on QRA duy they "pre align" the jets, so when they scramble it only has to spin up and be confirmed. This of course has to be done again if it's moved or have been stationary for so and so long.

[Machalot]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:55 AM, QuiGon said:

That's wrong. It has a normal INS system that needs about the same time to align as the INS of other aircraft we have in DCS (~8 min).

Does an old stable platform system align in the same time as modern strapdown IMUs?  Isn't it also driven by mission accuracy requirements? 

[QuiGon]

4 hours ago, Machalot said:

Does an old stable platform system align in the same time as modern strapdown IMUs?  Isn't it also driven by mission accuracy requirements? 

I don't think there are many missions (if any), where you would purposfully do a less precise alignment (apart from intercept scrambles).

[LastRifleRound]

On 12/30/2022 at 1:17 PM, WinterH said:

No, afaik DSCG will be the first, and DMAS will be later on.

According to the linked FAQ, it doesn't really confirm one way or another:

Q: What variants will the Heatblur F-4 Phantom include?
A: The first release will be DCS: F-4E, the iconic land based variant of the Phantom. We will be launching two variants of the -E; a “classic era” F-4E (blocks 36-45 with updates retrofitted in 1974 and before, including new slats, DSCG and AGM-65) as well as an upgraded (DMAS) version of the aircraft in one package.

First release is F-4E, classic era and DMAS in "one package". This doesn't really say whether they'd both be available at EA release, and it doesn't say they won't, either. It just means both variants are included in the price of this one module. Do you have a source indicating they will be available at different times?

[WinterH]

3 minutes ago, LastRifleRound said:

Do you have a source indicating they will be available at different times?

I'm afraid I'l have to pull off the "you'll have to trust me on that one" here. I do recall HB stating a few times that it will DSCG being first, DMAS being later in various forum posts etc, but can't quite dig them out right now :). But yeah, it isn't stated in that FAQ. Really sure they won't be at the same time at release though.

Perhaps @IronMike or @Cobra847 may clarify the order when/if they are able

[Fromthedeep]

According to the 10 percent true interview, the ARN-101 required well over 10 minutes to align.