Replacing the horrible MiP buttons

[obious]

I received my MiP a few weeks ago (UFC & HUD panels only) and after spending a good number of hours using the hardware in DCS, I can say that I like the what WinWing has produced a lot. 
However, for the life of me I cannot get used to just have a horrible the UFC buttons are and how they feel; I think they’re horribly squishy which make it difficult to develop muscle memory when using the setup in VR. 
 

The question I have is, has anyone taken apart their MiP and/or thought about replacing the buttons? I’m pretty handy with a 3D printer (and even have a resin printer arriving in a few days for a separate project) but I’m wondering if anyone could share their experiences with taking apart the panel(s)

 

Thanks! 

[obious]

So I did a bit more digging here (I actually took the UFC apart to see what type of buttons WinWing are using), see attached pictures.

It looks like they’re using some kind of capacitive buttons with the button ‘reset’ action coming from the squishy rubber material of the buttons themselves. Why for the life of me they didn’t using standard spring-loaded buttons (or even mini tactile stitches) I’ll never know; doing so would created a much better feeling using the UFC. Winwing if you’re reading this, please release an updated V2 of the UFC with better feeling buttons! 

As a result, I’m not really sure the current buttons can be improved upon which is a little upsetting 

[rob10]

That's definitely a little disappointing, but certainly explains the feel of them.  I'm like you in that the feel of them is the only thing I don't like with the setup.  Likely done that way to keep the price of the unit down.  For the price I'd still buy it again with the same, but it would be nice to have a higher quality version.

[Phantom711]

Ok…for some reason my text vanished.

I took the MFD apart out of the same curiosity and came to the same conclusion.

The only thought that still sticks to my mind is, if one could 3D-print with a similarily squishy material, one could give the buttons an individual „texture“ in order to be able to distinguish them easier in VR.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Phantom711

[MustangSally]

....well there goes your warranty!

[obious]

7 hours ago, MustangSally said:

....well there goes your warranty!

On my unit there wasn’t any anti-tamper/‘warranty void’ seal and to be honest, at the price point these are being sold at, I can just buy a new one if it breaks (by my hand or it’s own). I’d also say that the UFC wasn’t too hard to get into, just 12 screws  

[Gruman]

Thanks for the view of the PCB. You didnt take any pictures of the bottom side of the DDI PCB's? Mostly curious about the USB-C Socket and the controller.

Standard rubber dome "switches". Nothing capacitive. When you press down the dome, a conductive film on the dome will connect the two exposed ENIG plated rings.
Not the best tactile feeling, but other than that, the MIP and DDI's are rather great. Can't complain.

[Phantom711]

No sorry, no other pictures.

[_Hoss]

On 1/3/2023 at 3:27 AM, obious said:

I received my MiP a few weeks ago (UFC & HUD panels only) and after spending a good number of hours using the hardware in DCS, I can say that I like the what WinWing has produced a lot. 
However, for the life of me I cannot get used to just have a horrible the UFC buttons are and how they feel; I think they’re horribly squishy which make it difficult to develop muscle memory when using the setup in VR. 
 

The question I have is, has anyone taken apart their MiP and/or thought about replacing the buttons? I’m pretty handy with a 3D printer (and even have a resin printer arriving in a few days for a separate project) but I’m wondering if anyone could share their experiences with taking apart the panel(s)

 

Thanks! 

The buttons on the real UFC are flimsy too... so it must be close to realistic, they are cheap plastic with clear plastic plungers that go thru a hole and push these really cheap pushbuttons. The plungers break all the time and it makes it feel terrible when pushing them. Not to mention it no longer works as advertised. So when I hear I wish it was Military grade... well you really don't want that either.......

[obious]

On 1/10/2023 at 11:20 PM, 352nd_Hoss said:

The buttons on the real UFC are flimsy too... so it must be close to realistic, they are cheap plastic with clear plastic plungers that go thru a hole and push these really cheap pushbuttons. The plungers break all the time and it makes it feel terrible when pushing them. Not to mention it no longer works as advertised. So when I hear I wish it was Military grade... well you really don't want that either.......

I didn’t say (nor do I believe other people did) that I want ‘mil-spec’ buttons/switches, I’m suggesting that Winwing make their buttons have a more ‘positive’  feel/engagement so that when I’m flying in VR, I get confirmation that a button was successfully pushed tactfully/through feeling rather than having to look at which button I’m pressing in cockpit to ensure activation. I also think there’s a difference between ‘flimsy’ and activation type; what you describe sounds like whoever manufactured those switches did so to meet contract costs hence why you call them ‘cheap’. I’ve already mentioned above that I think replacing the soft smushy buttons Winwing used with tactile switches wouldn’t  cost much more to produce (if at all)but ultimately they’d know that more than I would 

[metalnwood]

I dont know the size, there seems to be some space in the rubber that is pressed against the switch.   Could you possibly drop in a small button like this, they are a few cents a piece and while it wouldnt be used as part of the circuit it would just press against the board to close the switch while giving tactille when you press on it.

     I don't know if it would work in practice but you never know..

 

[Gruman]

The click would be missleading, since it will click even if the MIP didnt had a closed contact. 

[metalnwood]

Then it wouldnt be any good   My assumption was that it would close the button contacts before the tactile switch clicked, like any hack it may or may not work well.

 

Edit - ah, but as i look again, it wont work at all as the tactile switch will stop the conductive part of the rubber making contact.  to activate the switch.

Edited January 13, 2023 by metalnwood

[84-Simba]

Damn ...

So it would require a complete new PCB with new switches to improve this.

I was hoping to solder old cougars buttons onto the Winwings ...

[WINWING]

Thank you for your feedback and hard working, it's valuable  information.

[obious]

13 hours ago, 84-Simba said:

Damn ...

So it would require a complete new PCB with new switches to improve this.

I was hoping to solder old cougars buttons onto the Winwings ...

You mean like this? 

 

This is just a prototype that I've been designing over the past few weeks, I'm also doing a UFC PCB. I'll be posting these prototypes for sale here in these forums once the WAGO PCB terminal blocks arrive (I'll be looking for about £15 each) as I feel like someone could use them and they'd be going to waste sitting in one of my drawers. I'll also be including the design files/schematics in the sale of each one so that people can see how they're built and modify if needed.

Edit: these tactile switches have LEDs built into the unit themselves and are ridic cheap. I'm also designing PCBs that take the more standard 6x6mm tactile switches in case people don't want/need to use backlighting (for VR etc).

Edit 2: added UFC picture

Edited January 28, 2023 by obious

[obious]

5 hours ago, WINWING said:

Thank you for your feedback and hard working, it's valuable  information.

Thanks for the reply. As with others, I feel that if you make a few small changes to the UFC (most notably using 6x6 tactile switches) you'd have a near-perfect product. Please consider if you ever make a UFC V2 (I'd buy it in a heartbeat despite having the original)  

[84-Simba]

4 minutes ago, obious said:

You mean like this? 

This is just a protrotype that I've bene designing over the past few weeks. I'm also doing a UFC PCB. I'll be posting these prototypes for sale here in these forums once the WAGO PCB terminal blocks arrive (I'll be looking for about £15 each) as I feel like someone could use them and they'd be going to waste sitting in one of my drawers. I'll also be including the design files/schematics in the sale of each one so that people can see how they're built and modify if needed.

 

Noice !

Definitely intersted but then I have three major questions :

1- the design of the PCB is blocking the screen sight, doesn't it ?

2- is there any backlighting of the buttons and can it be bound to an axis ?

3- Will there be the extra buttons between the OSB like the Winwings ?

Thank you very much

1 minute ago, obious said:

Thanks for the reply. As with others, I feel that if you make a few small changes to the UFC (most notably using 6x6 tactile switches) you'd have a near-perfect product. Please consider if you ever make a UFC V2 (I'd buy it in a heartbeat despite having the original)  

I support this.

I bought the Orion 1 throttle and bought the Orion 2 because of the improvments of the detents.

So, I'd definitely buy shopping for a V2 with new buttons.

[obious]

10 minutes ago, 84-Simba said:

Noice !

Definitely intersted but then I have three major questions :

1- the design of the PCB is blocking the screen sight, doesn't it ?

2- is there any backlighting of the buttons and can it be bound to an axis ?

3- Will there be the extra buttons between the OSB like the Winwings ?

Thank you very much

Thanks. 

1. I don't plan to add segment displays as I fly mainly in VR. I also don't really have the time to figure out all the coding etc required to actually connect the segment displays to DCS (via DCS BIOS). I should have said in my previous post that these PCBs I'm putting together are designed to plug into a Leo Bodnar board/other breakout board and to not connect to a PC via USB directly; again, don't really have a time currently to investigate how to incorporate logic chips that register as USB devices in Windows when plugged into a computer. I may do it further down the line though.

2. Not currently. It may be possible to modify the PCB schematic slightly so that an axis/potentiometer could control the voltage/brightness of the LEDs but I just haven't explored that yet. Good idea though.

3. Definitely not. As much as a like what WW has produced, the additional buttons they've added (in particular to the DDIs) are a big turn-off for me. Maybe I'm a slight realism purest but my goal is to recreate only the buttons/inputs on my PCBs that exist on the real jets.

Edited January 28, 2023 by obious

[84-Simba]

1 minute ago, obious said:

Thanks. 

1. I don't plan to add segment displays as I fly mainly in VR. I also don't really have the time to figure out all the coding etc required to actually connect the segment displays to DCS (via DCS BIOS). I should have said in my previous post that these PCBs I'm putting together are designed to plug into a Leo Bodnar board/other breakout board and to not connect to a PC via USB directly; again, don't really have a time currently to investigate how to incorporate logic chips that register as USB devices in Windows when plugged into a computer. I may do it further down the line though.

2. Not currently. It may be possible to modify the PCB schmatic slightly so that an axis/potentiometer could control the voltage/brightness of the LEDs but I just haven't explored that yet,

3. Definitely not. As much as a like what WW has produced, the additional buttons they've added (in particular to the DDIs) are a big turn-off for me. Maybe I'm a slight realism purest but my goal is to recreat only the buttons/inputs on my PCBs that exist on the real jets.

- Well, if the PCB is designed to fit into the Winwing casing then don't worry about coding the display.

It just have to be opened in the middle to allow for a screen to be put behind.

Nothing too bad if it is intended to connect to a Leo Bodnar. There are a lot of tutorials to make it work by ourselves.

The hardest part is crafting the thing.

- That would be great indeed

- Bummer for the Apache players I think, but I did not tried that yet. 

[obious]

1 hour ago, 84-Simba said:

- Well, if the PCB is designed to fit into the Winwing casing then don't worry about coding the display.

It just have to be opened in the middle to allow for a screen to be put behind.

Nothing too bad if it is intended to connect to a Leo Bodnar. There are a lot of tutorials to make it work by ourselves.

The hardest part is crafting the thing.

- That would be great indeed

- Bummer for the Apache players I think, but I did not tried that yet. 

I should have said, I don't plan on replacing the WW PCBs, these are for my own 3D UFC and DDIs

[Sunny]

Any news on this? 

Anyone manage to successfully replace those "remote control from the 90´s" buttons? 

[metalnwood]

I didnt have mine when I first commented but now I do.   I don't find them too bad and not night and day difference from the TM MFD's.

     I was worried reading this that they would be very mushy but I dont find them to be like that at all.

[Gruman]

I dont mind them at all. Sure, a more tacticle click would be nice, but its definitly usable.
Dont see much chance for modifiying those, other than maybe replacing the whole rubber dome. Guess it would be easier and cheaper to go with a UFC from another manufacturer if this is really a problem.