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Realistic re-arm, refuel and repair times for the new EDDCE


Lace

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I'm hoping this will be addressed in the new DC.  At the moment, re-arm and refuel times are (for good reason) incredibly unrealistic.  I'm curious to know how this will fit in with a real-time DC?  Turn around times should be 1-2hrs in surge tempo, or 4-5 at a more sustainable tempo.  Currently it is less than 1-2 minutes which would destroy any sense realism in a real-time campaign.  Take this for an example - say an airfield has an allocation of 16 Vipers - these are useable assets which can be fragged on tasks, flown, damaged, etc.  Let's say three flights of four are on a mission, and return.  At this point there are only four available for tasking.  They could be immediately occupied by the player, assuming the role of a different pilot in a different tail number, but at some point, through attrition, maintenance and lengthy repair of battle damage, it could be conceivable that there will be no assets remaining which are flyable at that time.  From a gameplay POV, it would make sense to have some kind of fast-forward time skip until their are enough aircraft available to continue, but in a multi-player environment this could be challenging to implement.  

DCS already has warehouses implemented for airfield munitions, will aircraft spares be added to the inventory,  meaning asset repair could actually be impossible until the relevant spares have been delivered?  Could airframe damage render an aircraft irreparable for the remainder of the campaign? 

I guess these are more questions than wishes.  My wish really is that it is done in a realistic, meaningful way.  Endless hot-pits and battle damage repaired in minutes would remove the requirement for proper tactics and planning to minimise losses to your limited number of assets, and as a result make for a very unrealistic campaign.

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1 hour ago, Lace said:

I'm curious to know how this will fit in with a real-time DC?  Turn around times should be 1-2hrs in surge tempo, or 4-5 at a more sustainable tempo.  Currently it is less than 1-2 minutes which would destroy any sense realism in a real-time campaign.

TBH, there must be things that are more fun in games than they are in real life - hence the 'game' part. IRL, repairs of airplanes take weeks. The theoretical field repair times of 2 hours are only for minor stuff, and pre-supposes that you are fully stocked with the correct manpower, equipment, and know-how. Also, (and I think that is a good thing), DCS doesn't model aircraft availability. IIRC, the Hornet's average availability (i.e. after start-up it was good to go on-mission) hovers around 50%-60%. Dou you really want to start-up your bird only to fail combat readiness every other time? It would be realistic, though. 

Then again, I see that for longer campaigns, this could be a (still unrealistic) game element that could be fun (although I believe that "real" real-time campaigns would last weeks or months, and require pilots to fly 8 hours-long single engagement - again something only hard-core players would enjoy), so limiting a plane/slot availability could add to that. But we don't really need the underlying game to implement this. 

What I'm saying is that I think that this is something that can be resolved within your server's population: use scripts to block slots for a while after the plane is exited, and have a gentlemen's agreement amongst your team to not use repairs. Because - let's be honest - if you can't get your team to observe such simple rules, they are not worth your time; you have better things to do than to waste your time with such people.

1 hour ago, Lace said:

They could be immediately occupied by the player, assuming the role of a different pilot in a different tail number, but at some point, through attrition, maintenance and lengthy repair of battle damage, it could be conceivable that there will be no assets remaining which are flyable at that time.

From a personal (highly subjective) perspective: I've written a number of missions that permanently block slots for planes that are destroyed, block slots for a time (say 30 mins) after they land, and reduce the 'available pilots' count every time that a player gets killed (when the number reaches zero, the engagement is lost). Feedback from my players was that they like the idea of a pilot cap (an arcadey "number of lives" analogue), and enjoy permablocking lost slots (which are limited after all), as it gives you an incentive to be less reckless. They positively hate the idea of a time block after landing to simulate repair/refuel. Usually, their reasoning is 'I don't have time for that' - people tend to agree to simple black/white rules, and frown on what they view as unnecessary time sinks (some even view cold starts as wasting their game time), especially when it pertains to their quality time (which is contested by other important interests like kids, partners and friends). I believe that ED understand this and have thus come up with the game-ification 3 minute field repair.

1 hour ago, Lace said:

My wish really is that it is done in a realistic, meaningful way.

I believe that 'realism' and 'meaning' are disjunct sets, that can be handled separately. Most of us don't want full-on realism; we want to enjoy ourselves. Yet a certain (quite high in comparison with other games) measure of realism is very welcome. And in the context of the game, an underlying set of rules - even if unrealistic - should give meaning to what we do; they imbue a mission with what we came for: fun. DCS is a game, and ED have done a terrific job of separating dreary real-world chores from in-game challenges, that they have made optional so that the game can reach a wider audience.  

1 hour ago, Lace said:

Endless hot-pits and battle damage repaired in minutes would remove the requirement for proper tactics and planning to minimise losses to your limited number of assets, and as a result make for a very unrealistic campaign.

I believe that in the context of DCS, there is already a lot in place (or can be made through scripting) to make missions more challenging (e.g. by removing endless hot-pits and placing a cap on pilot deaths). I agree that I would like it if ED would allow ME to customize repair times, and offer an improved way to manage in-game slot availability. My own experience, though, is that many (most?) players don't stomach wait times longer than 2-3 minutes (something a server admin has to consider, as the last thing they want is players leaving their server). If you have a tightly-knit group of like-minded enthusiasts, I believe you can make a more realistic experience happen by agreeing to rules like 'no repairs under 30 minutes'. Meaning: every player opts in by their own accord. If you think that you can force other players to conform to such rules by enforcing server restrictions, you'll find that there are few shorter roads to an unpopular server than that. People simply don't like to do as other people tell them what to do - they have enough of that at work.

Also I believe that as long as we remain within the realm of entertainment software, we'll always be running a "very unrealistic campaign". We'd merely move the goalpost to 'slightly less very unrealistic" - while it's unknown if those changes make that campaign more fun. As long as ED make these things mission-configurable, I'm all in favor. This will be the 'Darwinian Approach'. Successful missions will prevail, and their underlying ruleset will propagate. Look, for example, at the popularity of the fantastic 'Foothold' missions on MP servers. They aren't very realistic. They are fun, though, and that is what matters to most people. Do we need more realism? I truly don't know. But we de need more options for mission designers to play around with rules so they can give meaning and fun to their mission. Players then vote with what they play most.


Edited by cfrag
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For a singleplayer dynamic campaign,  this can easily be fixed. That once you ask for rearm. Time simply skips whatever time is needed for the rearming. I doubt any jet that was damaged would be sent up that day or even that week. So you'd simply use another plane or have to wait several days.

In ww2 birds light superficial damaged could be patched up almost as fast as attaching a few bombs.

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Some great points @cfrag, but heavily skewed to the MP experience.  As a primarily SP player I am hoping the EDDCE will not be solely a MP function.

One thing I know which effects the way people fight in DCS, is the lack of consequences for death or damage (or indeed economical use of ordnance), which in turn means there are unconventional tactics at play which would never be find in the real world.  I would like the DC to reward realistic planning and execution, rather than the type of operations which are seen on many (not all) MP servers.

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5 minutes ago, Lace said:

Some great points @cfrag, but heavily skewed to the MP experience.

Silly me, I completely missed the more important SP aspect. My apologies, I'm sometimes a bit self-centered 🙂  

Indeed I seem to recall an old sim (that rhymes with "Balkan" but shall not be named) which had an excellent dynamic campaign and implemented (IIRC, it's been a while) limited airframe and/or weapons availability. Add to that the ability to accelerate time by a couple of hours to simulate down-time for repairs while the rest of the campaign moves on, and yes, I believe I can see how that can add a lot of fun. Especially if you are able to also influence the meta-game (a la Liberation ) in-between missions. 

I'm really looking forward to see what ED have in store for us with their take on dynamic campaigns 

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3 minutes ago, Johnny Dioxin said:

If you want it for SP it's really simple. If your aircraft or that of a flight member is damaged, don't fly it for the amount of time you would expect a repair to take.

I think it's wrong to try and get it changed for others when it's very easy to play how you want to without forcing others to do the same.

It would be easy enough to implement 'Fast Repairs' as a cheat, like 'unlimited weapons/fuel', while maintaining realistic timings for those wanting a more true-to life experience.  You wouldn't expect everyone to play with unlimited weapons, and just count the number they've expended to simulate realism, would you?

Strange how many players want realistic button pushing, but not realistic warfare.  No wonder people jokingly refer to DCS as 'Digital Cockpit Simulator'.

I know I'm probably a statistical anomaly though, I play 3-day C:MO scenarios with no time compression! 🤣

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2 minutes ago, Lace said:

Strange how many players want realistic button pushing, but not realistic warfare

I guess that's similar to how many people like Truck Simulators (a bit unfathomable to me, as I hate driving sims for reasons I don't understand), yet they don't want congested city streets, unfriendly drivers cutting them off, stop-and go on the highway, hours-long searches for parking, hateful cargo supers, overzealous officials performing lengthy inspections of your vehicle and drive time, or realistically long waits at toll booths and customs. Some aspects of life are fun, other aren't. And each is highly subjective: a two-hour ingress in a helicopter is realistic. Fun? You decide. For some it is fun, and that's legit. For many (the majority?), I suspect it's not. In entertainment, most people want the juicy bits without the bitter fillers. DCS can deliver that. In spades. And it can deliver 2 hours-long ingress routes. If you want it to. What a great game 🙂 

 

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17 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Some aspects of life are fun, other aren't. And each is highly subjective: a two-hour ingress in a helicopter is realistic. Fun? You decide. For some it is fun, and that's legit. For many (the majority?), I suspect it's not. In entertainment, most people want the juicy bits without the bitter fillers. DCS can deliver that. In spades. And it can deliver 2 hours-long ingress routes. If you want it to. What a great game 🙂 

 

Can't disagree with that really.  For me though, consider two scenarios - the first a 1v1 BFM instant action mission.  Good fun and ideal for a quick buzz, and I don't really care if I get killed.  The second, is the chance of a 1v1, after a 2-hour ingress to target, about to be bounced just as I make the IP.  Now I need to fight, and need to win, and still make my TOT.  I've invested all this time and I can't take stupid risks otherwise the mission is failed.  There is far more satisfaction in making it home and hearing the gyros spin down as I sit on the apron after that kind of encounter (IMHO) than the the first type.  Horses for courses, and I still like the odd instant-action when I am time constrained by real life.

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Yeah... sitting in the pit for three hours waiting for my hornet to be rearmed after already flying for an hour? I'll pass thank you very much. Yes, I know it's a Simulator, but there have to be some concessions made in order for there to be fun.

I've had a similar conversation about the ground aspect of another game... what happens when you get shot, but not killed? Answer: You go down, some medic runs up, uses a med-pack and you're back up in seconds. With a certain mod installed, they have to do a bit more work, but they have you back up in a couple minutes. In real life? You're evac'd to a field hospital where they do an emergency surgery to keep you alive, and then send you to a proper hospital back home. After they've put you back together (and oh btw, this assumes all of your limbs are still attached), you go into rehab for the next six to eighteen months. At which point, you go through some retraining, and arrive to a new unit since your spot was filled a couple days after you were flown out.

I get people want more realism in DCS or other sims, and that's perfectly fine... but there comes a point where it's too much for the majority of people who might try the game out.

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Rearm and refuel doesn't always take hours. Quite a few planes boast being able to perform the task in minutes.

In anycase, I think a sim should have the option to model everything realistically, even if few might use it. Put a slider somewhere to set reload time so that it can go from 1x speed to 10x speed, or whatever is needed.

Also, real life is a really mixed bag. In topics like this people like to argue that reality always goes a certain way, and that it's boring, but that's not really true. Just for example contrast this:

  

32 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

what happens when you get shot, but not killed? Answer: You go down, some medic runs up, uses a med-pack and you're back up in seconds. With a certain mod installed, they have to do a bit more work, but they have you back up in a couple minutes. In real life? You're evac'd to a field hospital where they do an emergency surgery to keep you alive, and then send you to a proper hospital back home. After they've put you back together (and oh btw, this assumes all of your limbs are still attached), you go into rehab for the next six to eighteen months. At which point, you go through some retraining, and arrive to a new unit since your spot was filled a couple days after you were flown out.

 

 

With this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachhiman_Gurung

The wiki story sounds like a video doesn't it? But it's actually the true to life story.

Of course, the situation I quoted isn't unrealistic either, I just want to point out that that even in an extremely realistic environment, it can be hard to predict what will happen.


Edited by Exorcet
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3 hours ago, Lace said:

As a primarily SP player I am hoping the EDDCE will not be solely a MP function.

I assume the main aspect of the Dynamic Campaign would be SP. That’s the whole point isn’t it? And for a DC I can certainly see the goal of having damaged aircraft out of action for extended periods. 

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1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

Yeah... sitting in the pit for three hours waiting for my hornet to be rearmed after already flying for an hour? I'll pass thank you very much.

Nobody is saying that.  Of course you will have the ability to jump into another aircraft as another pilot, and the campaign rolls on, while your recently landed aircraft is being prepped.  This will have no effect on the normal way people play, but anything less in the DC should not be possible, otherwise there would be no asset management element.

40 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Rearm and refuel doesn't always take hours. Quite a few planes boast being able to perform the task in minutes.

 

Only in very well rehearsed, planned and usually staged scenarios.  It is highly unlikely that airbases would be able to sustain these super-quick hot pits for long in a all-up war situation.  There is an extensive thread on the C:MO forums on this very subject.  Just because there are a few youtube videos of Formula One style rearms doesn't mean it is the norm.

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I assume the main aspect of the Dynamic Campaign would be SP. That’s the whole point isn’t it? And for a DC I can certainly see the goal of having damaged aircraft out of action for extended periods. 

I hope so.

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18 minutes ago, Lace said:

I hope so.

Well 90% of the players are SP so that’s a safe assumption. 
 

I find the MP-only viewpoint of this game to be rather curious since in that aspect the game is missing so much. For example this topic here. Why land at all in MP? Why refuel? Just air-quit and respawn. There’s nothing you gain by landing unless the server has points to earn etc and I’m not sure if most people even care about that. You could play avidly online and never learn to land. Or so many other things besides just spamming missiles at people. Now the better servers like Blue Flag have some mechanisms to encourage realistic behavior but as far as I see they’re the only one.  


Edited by SharpeXB

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I think it should be that you see the arming and fuel trucks/rescue recovery roll out of some place and personnel take positions and "hook" you up/disconnect....then pull away...that would give a more realistic feel to the procedures both visually and a better sense of time.


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Sounds like a good selectable option to me! It would definitely add an extra element of strategy to a SP campaign. MP may be tough to pull off for the general servers, but more focused ones, groups that host specific campaigns/missions like Tactical DCS or any squadron really ,It  could very well be a good implementation! Personally when I hop on multiplayer, I like to find an objective work with people in there, if anyone is willing, do my thing and then I’m usually done for the evening. Very rarely do I continually play for hours on end. But it could open up a whole new world of “hardcore” servers. On a single player campaign I would 100% activate a feature like that. Assuming the opposing AI side would follow suit as well.

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Doing it in single-player may be a nice touch but I can't imagine it would be possible or worth the effort in multiplayer with the amount of synchronization that would be required, plus in the end time wouldn't advance any further for you since it's server synchronized.

 

At that point, in singleplayer, all the workflow just becomes

1. You requesting a rearm

2. Rearm beginning

3. Time skip to 1-2+ hours

4. You fly

 

At which point it would be more beneficial to be able to customize the loadout prior to mission start so you can assume that it'll be ready for you to startup.

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8 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Of course, the situation I quoted isn't unrealistic either, I just want to point out that that even in an extremely realistic environment, it can be hard to predict what will happen.

Yes, but remember, these are exceptions that prove the rule. How often do you hear of the ones who are crippled for life? How often do you hear of the ones who spend months or years in rehabilitation learning to walk again? The point I'm making is that while I wouldn't mind having some more realism in DCS, there is a line where, for me, it's no longer any fun. And frankly, being stuck in the pit for hours on end waiting for the ground crew to rearm my jet is just not fun to me.

What I'd rather ED do when it comes to anything regarding the ground crew, is show that they are doing what I asked them to do. I'd like visual indications of them rearming (a truck with ammo or some of the loaders going back and forth), refueling (a hose hooked up to a fuel truck), repairing (some crew doing their best pitstop impressions), and ground air/power (a power/huffer cart next to the plane like GD did with his Raptor mod). Things like that would add more to the immersion, and don't really take away from the experience.

On the carrier what I'd like to see is the deck crew directing you to a certain part of the deck where all of the above can occur.

On the subject of repairing, I'd like to see where if you request repair while stuck in the dirt, a recovery crane comes out and moves you to someplace on the ramp so you can move again.

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18 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Yes, but remember, these are exceptions that prove the rule.

Also true, but we're in a simulator. We can fix the odds if we want. It's not necessary to simulate the common conditions.

18 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

The point I'm making is that while I wouldn't mind having some more realism in DCS, there is a line where, for me, it's no longer any fun. And frankly, being stuck in the pit for hours on end waiting for the ground crew to rearm my jet is just not fun to me.

Everyone has different interests, which is why I made a point of bringing up a customizable experience. A slider lets everyone get the experience they want. Also, connecting with my first point about how realism may not lead to where one expects, even if DCS had long repair times, that doesn't mean a player would have to spend them stuck in the cockpit. In fact in real life the pilot wouldn't be in the plane while repairs are on going. We could simply take out another plane and leave the repair time as a strategic element of the game that effects things outside of player participation.

18 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

What I'd rather ED do when it comes to anything regarding the ground crew, is show that they are doing what I asked them to do. I'd like visual indications of them rearming (a truck with ammo or some of the loaders going back and forth), refueling (a hose hooked up to a fuel truck), repairing (some crew doing their best pitstop impressions), and ground air/power (a power/huffer cart next to the plane like GD did with his Raptor mod). Things like that would add more to the immersion, and don't really take away from the experience.

On the carrier what I'd like to see is the deck crew directing you to a certain part of the deck where all of the above can occur.

On the subject of repairing, I'd like to see where if you request repair while stuck in the dirt, a recovery crane comes out and moves you to someplace on the ramp so you can move again.

I'd also like more visuals for ground crew. As it stands, the unrealistic ghost crew that serves your plane can be problematic. If you don't see any equipment around your plane, it's quite easy to forget you have external power connected and taxi off without requesting a disconnect. These are functional as well as immersive changes.

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Well in my honest opinion this sort of thing will hold zero interest for ED and they are sure to not want to waste their programming time on it, considering how popular it is likely to be (or not). I'm sure they will think (imo quite rightly) that there are far more important things to work on.

Too many people don't know where to draw the line between leisure and monomania. As has been said - it's a game, for enjoyment at leisure and although some devs here have sometimes imho been swayed by persistent vexation by the more enthusiastic element of their customers online, ED seem to understand that point very well (and who better to judge it than the sim's developers themselves?) as they have clearly pointed out several times over the years when the issue has come up on the forums.

Still, you can continue arguing away as much as you like (or discussing if that's what you prefer to call it) - time will tell. I'm done here, though - good day to you and may many successful sorties find their way into your log 🙂

 

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I can definitely see this being a factor in a dynamic SP campaign although it would really just end up being a time skip for the player or result in damaged aircraft being taken out of service for extended times. But I can’t see this being practical for MP. Players would just respawn rather than wait for an hour, that should be obvious. 

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33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I can definitely see this being a factor in a dynamic SP campaign although it would really just end up being a time skip for the player or result in damaged aircraft being taken out of service for extended times. But I can’t see this being practical for MP. Players would just respawn rather than wait for an hour, that should be obvious. 

The time skip is the workaround of course, but my point, which many people seem to be missing is that the time skip is not without consequence.  For the player nothing really changes, but for the dynamic battlefield, those extended repair times mean day becomes night, FEBA shifts, SHORAD move and your intel is now several hours old. 

For example - If you are fragged to drop a bridge, and screw up your attack, you shouldn't be able to just RTB, and have another crack at it 20 minutes (game time) later.  Sure in the real world 20 minutes have passed and for the player nothing has changed, but in the virtual war you have skipped 4 hours ahead, that armoured column has now crossed the bridge and you have missed your chance.

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7 minutes ago, Lace said:

The time skip is the workaround of course, but my point, which many people seem to be missing is that the time skip is not without consequence.  For the player nothing really changes, but for the dynamic battlefield, those extended repair times mean day becomes night, FEBA shifts, SHORAD move and your intel is now several hours old. 

For example - If you are fragged to drop a bridge, and screw up your attack, you shouldn't be able to just RTB, and have another crack at it 20 minutes (game time) later.  Sure in the real world 20 minutes have passed and for the player nothing has changed, but in the virtual war you have skipped 4 hours ahead, that armoured column has now crossed the bridge and you have missed your chance.

Right. This totally makes sense in the context of a dynamic campaign. Heck take this even farther, you might not be able to refuel if the enemy has cut your supply lines as the result of another action. I can only assume this is what a DCE does, it’s like a persistent AI world. 


Edited by SharpeXB
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Just for those who talk about DCS as a game - it is a simulation. If you want gaming, maybe its game version will be the right way.

Irrespective of my own opinion, any argumentation for pro or con arguments start from the premise that DCS is a simulation.

 

**********************************DCS intro text *********************************

Free to Play Program

Digital Combat Simulator World Free to Play is now available.

Try out each and everyone of our products for 14 days per product during a six month period. You can play each module sequentially or any number of them at a time. The choice is yours!

**********************************************************************************

 

But what am I talking about? Even ED does not seem to be able to communicate precisely that they sell a simulation.

Or don't they do so any more? But if so, wouldn't they have clearly revealed such a change of genre? 

 


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15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Right. This totally makes sense in the context of a dynamic campaign. Heck take this even farther, you might not be able to refuel if the enemy has cut your supply lines as the result of another action. I can only assume this is what a DCE does, it’s like a persistent AI world. 

 

Exactly, it is that kind of detail I hope makes it through.  You are down to your last pair of GBU-10, make them count.  No resupply until we open up an air corridor for the C-130s etc etc.

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19 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Yes, but remember, these are exceptions that prove the rule. How often do you hear of the ones who are crippled for life? How often do you hear of the ones who spend months or years in rehabilitation learning to walk again? The point I'm making is that while I wouldn't mind having some more realism in DCS, there is a line where, for me, it's no longer any fun. And frankly, being stuck in the pit for hours on end waiting for the ground crew to rearm my jet is just not fun to me.

What I'd rather ED do when it comes to anything regarding the ground crew, is show that they are doing what I asked them to do. I'd like visual indications of them rearming (a truck with ammo or some of the loaders going back and forth), refueling (a hose hooked up to a fuel truck), repairing (some crew doing their best pitstop impressions), and ground air/power (a power/huffer cart next to the plane like GD did with his Raptor mod). Things like that would add more to the immersion, and don't really take away from the experience.

On the carrier what I'd like to see is the deck crew directing you to a certain part of the deck where all of the above can occur.

On the subject of repairing, I'd like to see where if you request repair while stuck in the dirt, a recovery crane comes out and moves you to someplace on the ramp so you can move again.

I would love to see this regarding ground crews.  I’d 100% wait an extra few minutes or whatever, to actually see crews roll up with carts of munitions, fuel trucks pull up and actually do their thing! For me that would be worth a bit of extra wait time!  As far as the realistic repair time, it can go both ways. Does the time skip forward and mission progress, are you locked to that one single aircraft? Or does that one airframe  go in the shop and is out of commission for a few days, game time( or however long), and you can catch a ride over to another jet in parking( if available) and continue on? Exit game in the middle of your sortie before landing, well you just lost that airframe unit another one can be delivered. Several interesting ways this could be implemented. Finding the balance to keep the realism/purists folks satisfied and not take the fun/ game factor away from the more casual players would be  the hurdle I suppose. Could be played out any way if the right menu options are implemented. 

2 hours ago, Lace said:

Exactly, it is that kind of detail I hope makes it through.  You are down to your last pair of GBU-10, make them count.  No resupply until we open up an air corridor for the C-130s etc etc.

Things like this would take this sandbox style game/sim and really give it meaning and coax people to strive to do better ( not everyone of course some would be severely annoyed or turned away I’m sure). Really make use of all of the different ways these jets can be used, and having to use a more tactical approach. As opposed to going full sail at everything , getting shot down with no consequence, because who cares. With three clicks you can just re-spawn in a new jet and haphazardly go on your merry way😃

Give DCS that real feeling of accomplishment. If you want to just casually shoot stuff up for fun, well there’s always War Thunder another few clicks away. 


Edited by MadKreator
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