Throttle issue

[Kurnass1977]

Hello guys,

now are quite some months of fly the F-15 but only yesterday I've noted that even if full push forward my throttle ( a Thrustmaster Horas X ) the max RPM stop at 95% and never able to hit 450 Kn. Iìm currently play the Aggresors Campaign and I sucks in plane performance even with the F-4s (!).

This don't happen with other plane of the same module (FC3) or other ones, with the exception of the Bronco with a max of 90% RPM.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance

[razo+r]

Press RCtrl + enter and check how far your throttle input goes.

Then check assigned axis control if you don't have set up some weird curve.

Also an idea would be to check axis in the windows control thing and if needed redo a calibration.

[Nahen]

36 minutes ago, Kurnass1977 said:

Hello guys,

now are quite some months of fly the F-15 but only yesterday I've noted that even if full push forward my throttle ( a Thrustmaster Horas X ) the max RPM stop at 95% and never able to hit 450 Kn. Iìm currently play the Aggresors Campaign and I sucks in plane performance even with the F-4s (!).

This don't happen with other plane of the same module (FC3) or other ones, with the exception of the Bronco with a max of 90% RPM.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance

Don't check anything. 100 throttle without afterburner is 96% on the RPM cockpit gauges. Moving the throttle further to the afterburner position does not change this parameter anymore - it is always "96% only".
When you move the throttle further and activate the afterburner then the only indicator of afterburner work on the gauges is "NOZ POS" under the gauges - FUEL FLOW - they show the nozzle opening percentage and you will have 100% there.
I don't know if that's actually the case. That's how it is in DCS.

[Kurnass1977]

Thx guys.

@Nahen, this explain all, in part a relief that I don't screw up something ( checked the axis etc... as per @razo+r suggestion and all work as needed). Effectively the gauges read as you explained mate.

So we will live with what we have...

[Theodore42]

Hm are you sure? Because you should be able to leave 450kts in the dust with the afterburner.

The afterburner has 5 stages, so you should be able to hear them individually if you are at military power (96%) and slowly increase the throttle to max. You will be able to hear THUMP-THUMP-THUMP-THUMP-THUMP as they engage. There should also be the swooshing sound of the afterburner you can hear in the cockpit, even if you have the setting "hear like with helmet" on.

450kts in F-15 is really wrong and really it is one of the best aircraft in DCS at employing Medium Range Missiles, IR missiles or guns.

[Ironhand]

Whether or not there's a problem would depend mostly on what altitude you are flying at and what you have hanging off of your wings and fuselage. And are you referring to IAS or TAS?

[Theodore42]

He's having problems keeping up with F-4s though. Even if OP maybe meant F-5s, it seems wrong (does the Aggressors Campaign have F-4s?). If you're so high that the F-15 is struggling to maintain 450 knots at MAX then the F-4 would be struggling to even maneuver at that altitude.

And at the altitude that MAX = 450 IAS the TAS would be something like 750.

I checked last night for a throttle detent toggle that would prevent the afterburner from engaging like the Viper and Hornet but currently the Eagle doesn't have that.

Seems like there is something we're missing. The Eagle is super good and is the most forgiving of mistakes.

[draconus]

5 minutes ago, Theodore42 said:

If you're so high that the F-15 is struggling to maintain 450 knots at MAX then the F-4 would be struggling to even maneuver at that altitude.

You're reading too much into it. He just could not win a dogfight vs F-4 AI, that's all. In the campaign you're the Aggressor and perform many DACT against multiple types, Phantoms are just one of them.

[Ironhand]

If he can’t get beyond 450 (assuming straight line flight), then there is indeed a problem. It’s been years since I’ve spent much time in the F-15C. So I took a quick refresher flight this AM. Taking off with 3 bags and full missiles and fuel, there was no problem exceeding 450 at both near sea level and high altitude (30+ thousand feet). If he’s referring to turning and burning, that’s something different.

[Nahen]

Many new F-15Cs have trouble maintaining speed and accelerating the aircraft. The Eagle is very heavy and any maneuver with the boosters off can cause you to lose speed and turn your nose up. Re-acceleration without the use of afterburner requires a little knowledge of the aircraft. Once you get to know it, flying at speeds of Mach 2 is not a problem as well as fuel control.. 

 

[Kurnass1977]

Guys, first of all thanks to take your time to answer me.

Second, I wasn't perfectly clear exposing my problem.

The lack of energy or velocity I refer is during manouvring with the F-4s ( in the campaign one mission is against Luftwaffe Phantoms) and think that is "normal" for both my relatively low hours of flying and the quick loss of speed without use AB to conserve fuel and tight manouvres.

Last night I used another approch that at lest help me  with this fight; I decided to use more AB and eventually use AAR to replenish the tanks. So, the first fight fished fo time exhaustion (5min max) despite I put a cannon hit during a head-on pass; I win the second, after a couple of scissor disengaged, hit the burner and go vertical with a vector roll and dive behind the F-4 and downed with a burst of cannon. This left me with just a little less of half  total fuel ( you have only the centerlin tank plus the full internal for the mission), so hit the tanker and go home.

Before landing I made a little try about the speed and obtain this:

87% RPM ( the detent at half run of my Hotas) at 20000 ft with speed between 315 and 320 kn IAS

90% RPM at 20000 with a stable 370 kn IAS

95% RPM 20000 with speed between 450/458 kn IAS

Finally I hit full burners ( or full forward throttle) at 18000 for about 30/40 sec with speed between 646/ 650 kn IAS

I don't jettison the empty tank and , as Aggressors campaign, over the NTTC

[Nahen]

In level flight with 100% engines without afterburning (i.e. 96% on the RPM clocks and NOZ POS at 0) at altitudes of 20,000-40,000 feet, maximum speeds are around Mach 0.7-0.9. 350-250kts on HUD.

As for the maneuver combat, get used to the fact that it is conducted on boosters. And the basic dependence - the higher you are, the less fuel you use. That's why the F-15C is not to be used for close manouvers dogfights. Because while without the use of the afterburner is probably in the entire DCS (I mean jet fighters) the plane that has the longest range and is really economical - but on high altitude - at low altitudes on the afterburner you will most often not know when you run out of fuel.
The joke is that you can fly it on afterburners for about an hour But you have to stay high at 45,000 - 55,000 feet, it allows for quite effective BvR combat at speeds around Mach 2.

[Kurnass1977]

Thanks mate,so after all look like if there're nothing weird on the game, or at least is all in line with the other players.

About fuel consumption I already knew that higher you are the less fuel consume you, one of the reason why USAF prefer to cruise at high altitude. BVR is the Eagle's game, and in other campaignes I played ( Red Flag and Georgian War) the majority of my kills were with AMRAAM, only a couple with Winders and a pair of gun kill

[Nahen]

2 hours ago, Kurnass1977 said:

Thanks mate,so after all look like if there're nothing weird on the game, or at least is all in line with the other players.

About fuel consumption I already knew that higher you are the less fuel consume you, one of the reason why USAF prefer to cruise at high altitude. BVR is the Eagle's game, and in other campaignes I played ( Red Flag and Georgian War) the majority of my kills were with AMRAAM, only a couple with Winders and a pair of gun kill

Such a "curiosity" - when I fly on PvP servers such as "Growling Sidewinder", about 80% of my kills are rockets fired by me from a distance of over 50 miles The F-15 systems do not yet inform about the readiness to launch the rocket - about entering within range not only that, I often manage to launch the Sidewinder M from a distance of 20 miles, which easily hits the target But one condition - speed > 2 Mach

[Theodore42]

19 hours ago, Kurnass1977 said:

Last night I used another approch that at lest help me  with this fight; I decided to use more AB and eventually use AAR to replenish the tanks. So, the first fight fished fo time exhaustion (5min max) despite I put a cannon hit during a head-on pass; I win the second, after a couple of scissor disengaged, hit the burner and go vertical with a vector roll and dive behind the F-4 and downed with a burst of cannon. This left me with just a little less of half  total fuel ( you have only the centerlin tank plus the full internal for the mission), so hit the tanker and go home.

Ok I see. I understand that IR and Guns training missions start when the bags are empty and the internal tanks are full. Also I believe they practice specific techniques or maneuvers in specific situations (like one starts behind the other) so the dogfight is over faster and the most amount of time is spent on the most important parts, like a musician practicing the 12 hardest measures instead of playing the whole piece every time.

I'll pick up this campaign, it sounds like it has some interesting scenarios.

[draconus]

4 hours ago, Theodore42 said:

I'll pick up this campaign, it sounds like it has some interesting scenarios.

Just to manage your expectations, every mission is almost the same, they mostly change the AI adversary type. All dogfights (1 vs 1 guns only) start head on 20nm apart when you get to the training area (India point at Coyote Charlie) after taking off from Nellis AFB. This is of course true to RL, all the correct approaches and procedures are there. There are also short practice missions where you're already there, ready for action.

[Gilligan]

On 1/16/2023 at 5:18 PM, Nahen said:

Many new F-15Cs have trouble maintaining speed and accelerating the aircraft. The Eagle is very heavy and any maneuver with the boosters off can cause you to lose speed and turn your nose up. Re-acceleration without the use of afterburner requires a little knowledge of the aircraft. Once you get to know it, flying at speeds of Mach 2 is not a problem as well as fuel control.. 

 

I need help in this regard. 

I'm a newer player and, well, my call sign might as well be "Bingo" because I'm always out of gas, and I haven't yet learned to manage my airspeed. Can you point me in the direction of some tips or advice to help better manage both airspeed and fuel with the F15C?

[draconus]

44 minutes ago, Gilligan said:

I'm a newer player and, well, my call sign might as well be "Bingo" because I'm always out of gas, and I haven't yet learned to manage my airspeed. Can you point me in the direction of some tips or advice to help better manage both airspeed and fuel with the F15C?

For a start try these 2 rules:

1. Never use AB unless you really need it.

2. Always fly high, like 30k, unless you really need to be down low.

Of course if you have different orders or briefing, adapt.

[Nahen]

59 minutes ago, Gilligan said:

I need help in this regard. 

I'm a newer player and, well, my call sign might as well be "Bingo" because I'm always out of gas, and I haven't yet learned to manage my airspeed. Can you point me in the direction of some tips or advice to help better manage both airspeed and fuel with the F15C?

Base:
1 - After the start, throttle at 95% on the clocks on the right panel, the first two clocks under the RWR (the round display on the right)
There you control the operation of the engines - after firing the engines on "idle" - iddle - work around 65-67%. The maximum value on these clocks is 96%. In fact, the afterburner ignites around 96%, so before you learn to "hear" and "feel" it after the start and whenever you do not need the afterburner - engines at a maximum of 95%.

2 - Velocity vector and Aircraft datum - these two markers need to be controlled. The F-15 is heavy and at higher altitudes and too low speed, it noses up above AoA 18-20 degrees and slows down. Very often, beginners fly on boost to avoid "uncontrolled" deceleration. Then the only way to "return" to level flight is to accelerate - i.e. use the afterburner and use fuel. You have to get into the habit of controlling these two markers and react faster enough to increase the engine speed enough to maintain the speed, but not to abuse or not to use the afterburner at all.

3 - altitude/ceiling - the higher you are, the less fuel you use. The F-15 is a plane that likes high altitudes. You want to fool around, fly low, etc - you will use a lot of fuel. You want to fly longer, shoot something down, typically in BvR you fly high and relatively fast. High means over 35,000 feet. 40-50 is the perfect range for the F-15C. At 40-45 thousand, if you accelerate to Mach 1 with the afterburner removed and the engines at 95%, you should maintain a speed of about Mach 0.9 without any problems. If you master the fast climb and acceleration, then in such conditions with two tanks under the wings (don't fly if you don't have to with three) you will be able to fly for two hours. Each use of afterburner consumes fuel drastically - although at high altitudes it is possible to fly on afterburner "relatively" economically - relatively - with full internal tanks, about 30-40 minutes non-stop on afterburners.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Nahen

[AdrianL]

1 hour ago, Gilligan said:

fuel with the F15C

ytdlder has a YouTube video might help. He talks about fuel management, etc 

 

If you are new to the F-15C then he has a playlist of 16 videos that might help you.

There is also a excellent F-15C combat guide on UserFiles https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/1965067/

Edited February 3, 2023 by AdrianL

[Gilligan]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:58 PM, draconus said:

For a start try these 2 rules:

1. Never use AB unless you really need it.

2. Always fly high, like 30k, unless you really need to be down low.

Of course if you have different orders or briefing, adapt.

Okay, I've definitely been overusing the AB then. 

Essentially I'm running max AB from take off until cruising altitude, usually 30k to 45k ft if its up to me, however many of the missions that I'm flying have targets from 1k to 25k feet so I usually end up quite a bit lower (25k to 30k or less). So max AB up to cruising altitude, then I drop it down to MIL until I find bandits. Once I drop tanks and start BVR maneuvers is when the fuel really starts to disappear. I can usually get 2, MAYBE 3 encounters in before I'm out of gas. I've run out of gas mid fight before as some of the fights I've been in went to the merge. From what I've learned, as I understand it for BVR the faster the better, but maybe there are times I should be backing off to save some fuel? I know it's bad practice, but at least for dealing with AI and having enough fuel to complete missions I've been hanging onto the external tanks until they are depleted and then dropping them, even if I am losing performance in the fight. 

On 2/3/2023 at 2:09 PM, Nahen said:

Base:
1 - After the start, throttle at 95% on the clocks on the right panel, the first two clocks under the RWR (the round display on the right)
There you control the operation of the engines - after firing the engines on "idle" - iddle - work around 65-67%. The maximum value on these clocks is 96%. In fact, the afterburner ignites around 96%, so before you learn to "hear" and "feel" it after the start and whenever you do not need the afterburner - engines at a maximum of 95%.

2 - Velocity vector and Aircraft datum - these two markers need to be controlled. The F-15 is heavy and at higher altitudes and too low speed, it noses up above AoA 18-20 degrees and slows down. Very often, beginners fly on boost to avoid "uncontrolled" deceleration. Then the only way to "return" to level flight is to accelerate - i.e. use the afterburner and use fuel. You have to get into the habit of controlling these two markers and react faster enough to increase the engine speed enough to maintain the speed, but not to abuse or not to use the afterburner at all.

3 - altitude/ceiling - the higher you are, the less fuel you use. The F-15 is a plane that likes high altitudes. You want to fool around, fly low, etc - you will use a lot of fuel. You want to fly longer, shoot something down, typically in BvR you fly high and relatively fast. High means over 35,000 feet. 40-50 is the perfect range for the F-15C. At 40-45 thousand, if you accelerate to Mach 1 with the afterburner removed and the engines at 95%, you should maintain a speed of about Mach 0.9 without any problems. If you master the fast climb and acceleration, then in such conditions with two tanks under the wings (don't fly if you don't have to with three) you will be able to fly for two hours. Each use of afterburner consumes fuel drastically - although at high altitudes it is possible to fly on afterburner "relatively" economically - relatively - with full internal tanks, about 30-40 minutes non-stop on afterburners.

 

Okay, I turned on the loud after burner sounds in the audio menu, and that definitely helps make it more obvious when the AB has kicked in. I will keep AoA in mind when at higher altitudes or lower speeds or just in general. I haven't been paying much attention to that except when the water line is a whole-ass 5+ degrees above the path indicator. 

I'm pretty okay with the concept of thinner air at higher altitudes, and how that translates to less fuel burn, faster AMRAAMs, etc. Cruising I'm fine with, I can conserve fuel while traveling, but once the fight is on it seems to run out almost immediately. I need to work on the fast climb though. For now I've been keeping it about 7.5* to keep from losing to much airspeed while climbing - usually with some degree of AB engaged. 

On 2/3/2023 at 2:13 PM, AdrianL said:

ytdlder has a YouTube video might help. He talks about fuel management, etc 

 

If you are new to the F-15C then he has a playlist of 16 videos that might help you.

There is also a excellent F-15C combat guide on UserFiles https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/1965067/

 

Thank you. I've been through the f15c tutorials provided for by the Grim Reapers youtube channel (among others), but I will go through this set as well. 

[razo+r]

26 minutes ago, Gilligan said:

Okay, I've definitely been overusing the AB then. 

Essentially I'm running max AB from take off until cruising altitude, usually 30k to 45k ft if its up to me, however many of the missions that I'm flying have targets from 1k to 25k feet so I usually end up quite a bit lower (25k to 30k or less). So max AB up to cruising altitude, then I drop it down to MIL until I find bandits. Once I drop tanks and start BVR maneuvers is when the fuel really starts to disappear. I can usually get 2, MAYBE 3 encounters in before I'm out of gas. I've run out of gas mid fight before as some of the fights I've been in went to the merge. From what I've learned, as I understand it for BVR the faster the better, but maybe there are times I should be backing off to save some fuel? I know it's bad practice, but at least for dealing with AI and having enough fuel to complete missions I've been hanging onto the external tanks until they are depleted and then dropping them, even if I am losing performance in the fight. 

Generally speaking, if you want a more efficient climb, you should (and I want to emphasize on generally, I dont know the exact performance number for the F-15) turn off AB just after takeoff, accelerate to ~450 kts (or a different number depending on your loadout) and then climb to your cruise altitude while loosing like 50kts per 10'000fts or something like that until you reach a desired Mach Number and then pitch up a bit to keep the Mach number until you are at your cruising altitude. 

That should generally give you a pretty decent climb profile compared to full AB climb. 

[Ironhand]

@Gilligan , you might find this helpful regarding the climb to altitude: 

 

[Nahen]

1 hour ago, Gilligan said:

Okay, I've definitely been overusing the AB then. 

Essentially I'm running max AB from take off until cruising altitude, usually 30k to 45k ft if its up to me, however many of the missions that I'm flying have targets from 1k to 25k feet so I usually end up quite a bit lower (25k to 30k or less). So max AB up to cruising altitude, then I drop it down to MIL until I find bandits. Once I drop tanks and start BVR maneuvers is when the fuel really starts to disappear. I can usually get 2, MAYBE 3 encounters in before I'm out of gas. I've run out of gas mid fight before as some of the fights I've been in went to the merge. From what I've learned, as I understand it for BVR the faster the better, but maybe there are times I should be backing off to save some fuel? I know it's bad practice, but at least for dealing with AI and having enough fuel to complete missions I've been hanging onto the external tanks until they are depleted and then dropping them, even if I am losing performance in the fight. 

Okay, I turned on the loud after burner sounds in the audio menu, and that definitely helps make it more obvious when the AB has kicked in. I will keep AoA in mind when at higher altitudes or lower speeds or just in general. I haven't been paying much attention to that except when the water line is a whole-ass 5+ degrees above the path indicator. 

I'm pretty okay with the concept of thinner air at higher altitudes, and how that translates to less fuel burn, faster AMRAAMs, etc. Cruising I'm fine with, I can conserve fuel while traveling, but once the fight is on it seems to run out almost immediately. I need to work on the fast climb though. For now I've been keeping it about 7.5* to keep from losing to much airspeed while climbing - usually with some degree of AB engaged. 

Thank you. I've been through the f15c tutorials provided for by the Grim Reapers youtube channel (among others), but I will go through this set as well. 

I use two versions of the flight depending on the conditions and specifics of the mission/task.

The first - when you need to maintain CAP over the area of operation of allied machines. Most often in such a situation you have to fly quite a lot to the CAP area, then hang there for quite a long time and secure the indicated area.
In this arrangement, the start with three tanks - which I hate - after the start I turn off the afterburner, climb 7-8 degrees and head to the target waypoint. Altitude 35-45 thousand and already above the waypoint a wide circular holding. If a threat is detected within 50-70 miles, course for interception without changing altitude and afterburner on. Attack from about 40 miles at a minimum of Mach 1.5. (without additional tanks because you won't get enough speed with them). After shooting down or when the enemy escaping, return without afterburner to the holding point and so on. If I don't have to, I don't come down from my ceiling. Speed and altitude - the basis of BvR.

Second scheme - intercept/fight enemy which is about 100 miles from my launch site - launch, with two tanks under the wings, on afterburner, after takeoff 15-20 degree climb left or right turn, full circle over airport with exit to capture/position of the enemy - turning max with 2G.
After a full circle, I usually end up at 40,000 feet at about Mach 1, 80-100 miles from my opponent. I cath level, dump the tanks and all the time on the afterburner towards the enemies, attack only around Mach 2. Nothing lower. As a rule, the effectiveness of the attack in such conditions AiM-120C is about 50%, i.e. on crowded PvP servers I ffly with 6 AiM-120 rockets, basically 3 certain kills. And a minimum attack from a distance of 40 miles and an unconditional departure around 25 miles from the opponents. Under these conditions, AMRAAMs basically hit the target at about Mach 2-3. They have enough energy to chase the target for quite a long time if they miss.

[Gilligan]

Thanks for the help guys. I really appreciate it.

I did a couple campaign missions last night, and was able to run an uncontested CAP and land with plenty of fuel.

Similarly I did a second mission, and was able to hit my way points and engage some pop up bandits with out running low on gas so I think I'm making progress, especially with regard to the climb and cruise. Mission parameters dictated an altitude of A25 so I didn't get to fully climb to 30+ but I can see the path there.

I didn't get into any long bvr engagements, as the F-pole maneuver with the 15C seems to dispatch the AI pretty effectively (Lethal launches at like 15 miles). 

I don't think holding fire till that close would work against players but It's working against AI.