WinWing Orion 1 F-18 Throttle Question on Range without AB Detent

[Recluse]

Probably a general question for many throttles, but I have the WinWing Orion, so that is the one I am concerned with.

 

I am wondering if there is a way in SIMAPPRO or DCS to reset the complete range of the throttle so it goes from 0 to 100 before the Afterburner detent.

Or maybe a better way to do what I want to do:

 

For Helicopter Collectives, and the Harrier, it is annoying to to have the AB Detent to run past. In the Harrier, especially when trying to HOVER, very small throttle movements are needed near the full power mark and going in and out of the AB detent reduces the amount of fine control. Similarly, for Helo collectives, pulling back through the DETENT often puts in more collective than is desired at takeoff or, alternatively, to zero collective for landings.

 

Thinking maybe a suitable curve might do the job as well, so I wondered what others are doing.  It is a tradeoff between losing the additional dynamic range of the throttle, and getting smoother control near the HIGH end (throttle) or LOW end (COLLECTIVE).

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.  I feel like I am missing something obvious 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Recluse

[Dragon1-1]

Just unscrew the detent from the track. It's just one screw. You can glue the nut into the plastic piece with some weak glue, so it doesn't fall out. The whole reason why the detent is designed that way is for it to be easily removed if need be.

[MadKreator]

21 hours ago, Recluse said:

Probably a general question for many throttles, but I have the WinWing Orion, so that is the one I am concerned with.

 

I am wondering if there is a way in SIMAPPRO or DCS to reset the complete range of the throttle so it goes from 0 to 100 before the Afterburner detent.

Or maybe a better way to do what I want to do:

 

For Helicopter Collectives, and the Harrier, it is annoying to to have the AB Detent to run past. In the Harrier, especially when trying to HOVER, very small throttle movements are needed near the full power mark and going in and out of the AB detent reduces the amount of fine control. Similarly, for Helo collectives, pulling back through the DETENT often puts in more collective than is desired at takeoff or, alternatively, to zero collective for landings.

 

Thinking maybe a suitable curve might do the job as well, so I wondered what others are doing.  It is a tradeoff between losing the additional dynamic range of the throttle, and getting smoother control near the HIGH end (throttle) or LOW end (COLLECTIVE).

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.  I feel like I am missing something obvious 

Curves/ saturation in the axis tune can get you around it.. I messed with mine quite a bit on the harrier just for that reason. Having the 104-106% power being right in the middle of that detent transition is terrible water on with adjusted curves helps get that range just below the detent but literally right at the bottom of it so you still have to push into it.. I was actually going to pull it apart and either re-grind the afterburner detent lip on the handle so its smoother but still works, or put a sifter spring in.. Default in the harrier at full forward, right at the detent, mine was only hitting 85% throttle(water off) adjusted the curves so now at the detent its 99/100%( water off) 104% water on but I still have to push in and out of the the detent in hover, super annoying. 

[Munkwolf]

I have a virpil CM3 throttle waiting to replace my TM WH and have been thinking about the same thing. I've been planning to use axis tune in DCS control config so that for modules like the harrier, helis, and warbirds 100% is at the detent. Then axis tuning modules with afterburner so they all consistently engage afterburner at the throttle detent. will lose a little dynamic range with helis, harrier, warbirds, but that is worth it to me to not have to change the throttle detent or change any config when i want to fly different things (which is often).

[Recluse]

46 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

Curves/ saturation in the axis tune can get you around it.. I messed with mine quite a bit on the harrier just for that reason. Having the 104-106% power being right in the middle of that detent transition is terrible water on with adjusted curves helps get that range just below the detent but literally right at the bottom of it so you still have to push into it.. I was actually going to pull it apart and either re-grind the afterburner detent lip on the handle so its smoother but still works, or put a sifter spring in.. Default in the harrier at full forward, right at the detent, mine was only hitting 85% throttle(water off) adjusted the curves so now at the detent its 99/100%( water off) 104% water on but I still have to push in and out of the the detent in hover, super annoying. 

That's what I thought MIGHT be a solution. Care to share your curves? LOL.. looks like I would STILL be able to blame my inability to hover on the throttle 

57 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Just unscrew the detent from the track. It's just one screw. You can glue the nut into the plastic piece with some weak glue, so it doesn't fall out. The whole reason why the detent is designed that way is for it to be easily removed if need be.

OUCH! I was really hoping not to have to do Throttle surgery!!! Especially since I fly other modules that I WANT the AB detent for.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Recluse

[Dragon1-1]

4 minutes ago, Recluse said:

OUCH! I was really hoping not to have to do Throttle surgery!!! Especially since I fly other modules that I WANT the AB detent for.

It's not much a surgery, it's literally one bolt to undo. I swap detents out all the time, based on what I'm currently flying. Unless you constantly switch modules, it's not much of a bother. You can use a curve, but you lose quite a bit of precision doing so. 

[MadKreator]

52 minutes ago, Recluse said:

That's what I thought MIGHT be a solution. Care to share your curves? LOL.. looks like I would STILL be able to blame my inability to hover on the throttle 

OUCH! I was really hoping not to have to do Throttle surgery!!! Especially since I fly other modules that I WANT the AB detent for.

 

Gimme a few minutes and I’ll check it out and reply, can’t remember off the top of my head …  Me too my friend, I can’t even fathom what it would be like to have smooth throttle during hover!

Edited January 17, 2023 by MadKreator

[Recluse]

31 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

Gimme a few minutes and I’ll check it out and reply, can’t remember off the top of my head …  Me too my friend, I can’t even fathom what it would be like to have smooth throttle during hover!

 

NO RUSH AT ALL... I have lived this long without it. I guess I can just go fly my shiny new MIRAGE for awhile   HONESTLY All the modules are fine EXCEPT when it comes to the high throttle states in the Harrier or the constant ROTOR RPM LOW in the APACHE on startup, but once in flight it isn't bad.

[MadKreator]

24 minutes ago, Recluse said:

NO RUSH AT ALL... I have lived this long without it. I guess I can just go fly my shiny new MIRAGE for awhile   HONESTLY All the modules are fine EXCEPT when it comes to the high throttle states in the Harrier or the constant ROTOR RPM LOW in the APACHE on startup, but once in flight it isn't bad.

So all I did was change the axis type to a slider then adjusted the curve until it sat about where I wanted it at the detent.  It helps but its still not perfect, something similar may help in the helis too. I was shooting for 100% rpm at the detent, should get to 104/105 ish at the same point with water

[Recluse]

Thanks! Will give it a shot. I never used the SLIDER function before! Wasn't even sure what it did!!

[MadKreator]

1 hour ago, Recluse said:

Thanks! Will give it a shot. I never used the SLIDER function before! Wasn't even sure what it did!!

I had no idea either lol I just kept messing with all of the different settings until something worked

[Recluse]

Holy crap man!!!!!! I don't know if it was your settings, or my hours of frustration finally  paid off, or the phase of the moon, but I just did 4 "sorta" Case 1 recoveries in a row on the Tarawa! Not by the book hovers by any means. Slow rolling landings with a very light bird, but  down safely with no broken aircraft...which is a WIN. My boarding rate was more like 20% before tonight and a white knuckle affair from start to finish. Just knowing I can get back aboard is a HUGE boost. Now If feel like I can actually start working on the full hover landing. Could VTO and transition to flight off the deck as well.

 

 

[Phantom711]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Dragon1-1:

It's not much a surgery, it's literally one bolt to undo. I swap detents out all the time, based on what I'm currently flying. Unless you constantly switch modules, it's not much of a bother. You can use a curve, but you lose quite a bit of precision doing so. 

I think, Recluse has an Orion 1, where the detents were under the hood like on most other throttles…

[Recluse]

3 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

I think, Recluse has an Orion 1, where the detents were under the hood like on most other throttles…

You are correct!!! As far as I could tell, the whole bottom plate would need to come off.

 

I wish I had waited for the Orion 2, but I was in dire need of a HOTAS replacement, and there was a sale...and despite a little FOMO, I have been very happy with it.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Recluse

[Phantom711]

@Recluse

Dragon was talking about the Orion 2 where it is very simple to remove the detent.

As far as I know it should be possible to remove it on yours as well…just more surgery as you had mentioned already. But I don‘t have any first-hand experience on it…

[Recluse]

12 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

@Recluse

Dragon was talking about the Orion 2 where it is very simple to remove the detent.

As far as I know it should be possible to remove it on yours as well…just more surgery as you had mentioned already. But I don‘t have any first-hand experience on it…

Yeah, the little curve change definitely helped.  I do very often fly multiple aircraft in a session, so I don't want to be tearing it apart and putting it back together.  It's fine the way it is except for very specific circumstances.  I had enough of that with my old COUGAR that was replaced by the ORION which I had to strip down fix frequently due to worn out gimbals and multiple changes of Potentiometers (both mechanical and Hall sensors).

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, sorry for not catching that you have the 1. That one is, unfortunately, not easy to get the detents out of. That said, you can upgrade your Orion 1 with finger lifts and Orion 2 style detents, just be aware that the detent track is glued onto the top plate, and if you'd still need to remove the ones inside if you don't want them doubled up (they kind of suck anyway, TBH). Not sure if that upgrade is worth it, but it's there.

[Recluse]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Yeah, sorry for not catching that you have the 1. That one is, unfortunately, not easy to get the detents out of. That said, you can upgrade your Orion 1 with finger lifts and Orion 2 style detents, just be aware that the detent track is glued onto the top plate, and if you'd still need to remove the ones inside if you don't want them doubled up (they kind of suck anyway, TBH). Not sure if that upgrade is worth it, but it's there.

Thanks!!  I was going to ask you EXACTLY where that one bolt lives, since it wasn't at all obvious to me,  but I figured I wasn't going to do the detent swap anyway.  The Orion (Stick and Throttle) has gotten so many upgrades since I bought mine, I have been wondering if it is worth it. Really more interested in the improvements to the STICK than the THROTTLE.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, it lives in a part which you don't have.  The throttle is actually much better than the old one, the stick, well, unless you go for the force sensing mod, it's actually mostly the same. Grips didn't change in either case.

[Recluse]

I thought the new Base had replaceable springs and cams, though I am happy enough with mine, it would be nice to have the flexibility. When I bought mine, I also bought the adapter in case I wanted to put my old COUGAR stick on, but I read it was not recommended due to the weight of the Cougar handle and the lighter springs. Thought heavier springs might make it more of a possiblity.

Might be useful to have the F-16 stick if I go back to flying the A-10, and the BMS 4.37 VR got me interested in flying the Viper again. (or just buy the WINWING F-16EX, I guess, but I can't quite justify that expenditure at the moment).

[Dragon1-1]

There are indeed replaceable cams, and in fact, you can swap the whole assembly out. Although, Orion 1 base is fine as it is, IMO. Never felt the need to fiddle with it. If I get Orion 2 someday, I'll try to get it with the force sensing mod.