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AAA Accuracy


zcrazyx

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Curious to hear of other peoples experiences on this subject as I've been flying the mosquito more recently and even at tree top level they seem to track me incredibly well, it seems to me as if you cannot surprise the AI per say as one could in real life with the surprise raids that often occurred using mosquitos.

So my question is this, how does AI track targets in DCS? Does it have blind spots per say, such as in aircraft where they wouldn't be able to detect someone sneaking up on their low 6, or for ground targets can they track targets through ground clutter such as trees, buildings and other things?

I'm finding it rather frustrating trying to get the most out of this module as the main purpose of it is ground attack and it seems that it is only possible to hit ground targets not protected by AAA. Perhaps better tactics could be used.

This is not a rant but rather a discussion on peoples experiences as I'm interested to hear others experiences to see if maybe there's some adjustment that could be done or if I just need to get good 🙂

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per my understanding no amount of clutter, buildings, and clouds can impede the AI from tracking your AC, and I've seen in helicopter threads that they are even get tracked behind hill's (not sure how it was substantiated, but helicopter guys suffer even more from the laser point AA).

The only hope is ED finally going to introduce a 'line of sight' improvements for AA sometime this year (hopefully), they've mentioned it in the recent news posts.

For my missions I stopped using AA altogether, or set them to 'return fire' only, or rely on half-tracks with .50 cals instead of true AA units. It's extremely frustrating otherwise.

ED made the improvements to the heavy flak a while back, it made things a bit better, but the light AA (20mm) is still an aimbot.

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This has been reported and discussed a number of times. Yes, AAA is currently too good

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It seems as if DCS treats AAA accuracy as a 2D error: calculate the correct solution and introduce an error in azimuth and elevation. This is the proper error for a laser weapon.
 

Real errors are 3D with the largest component being the range. You don’t just aim ahead of the target, you have to arc the shots, especially at low elevation angles. Range estimation errors thus introduce an error to both the elevation (balistic arc) and the amount of lead that is required. Even if the target is coming straight at you, the gunner still has to continuously correct for range.

WWII AAA did not have laser range finders or radars to automatically update the range for the aiming solution. Thus aiming at a low flying plane from a distance was really really difficult. Imagine throwing a stone at an arc in such a way that it lands on top of a plane whizzing by. Most of the time they couldn’t even see if their shots are landing too short or too long relative to the target.


Edited by Bozon
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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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What AAA you mean speaking about range measuring errors? 88 mm or small calibers?

 

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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6 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

What AAA you mean speaking about range measuring errors? 88 mm or small calibers?

 

“Small” caliber 20mm, 37mm, 40mm etc. When shooting at a plane at a significant distance and at a shallow elevation, the aiming problem becomes 3D, as the projectile flies at an arc and must land on the moving target.

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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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Any aiming presumes arc, for example, this is trajectory chart used for mechanical calculator for the 37 mm gun.

null

image.png

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Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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  • ED Team
On 1/23/2023 at 11:07 AM, zcrazyx said:

Curious to hear of other peoples experiences on this subject as I've been flying the mosquito more recently and even at tree top level they seem to track me incredibly well, it seems to me as if you cannot surprise the AI per say as one could in real life with the surprise raids that often occurred using mosquitos.

So my question is this, how does AI track targets in DCS? Does it have blind spots per say, such as in aircraft where they wouldn't be able to detect someone sneaking up on their low 6, or for ground targets can they track targets through ground clutter such as trees, buildings and other things?

I'm finding it rather frustrating trying to get the most out of this module as the main purpose of it is ground attack and it seems that it is only possible to hit ground targets not protected by AAA. Perhaps better tactics could be used.

This is not a rant but rather a discussion on peoples experiences as I'm interested to hear others experiences to see if maybe there's some adjustment that could be done or if I just need to get good 🙂

Could you supply a track of your example, I would be interested to see if they are truly blocked by LOS or other such issues. We do has some reports internally for over performing ground units, but more examples are always welcome. 

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10 hours ago, NineLine said:

Could you supply a track of your example, I would be interested to see if they are truly blocked by LOS or other such issues. We do has some reports internally for over performing ground units, but more examples are always welcome. 

I'll keep flying and post tracks, had to clear my tac and replay files for space, I fly the mossie so I'm sure it wont take long to get you some ahaha

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20 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

Any aiming presumes arc, for example, this is trajectory chart used for mechanical calculator for the 37 mm gun.

null

image.png

Sure, but look at the low trajectories - you need to land the shot on top of the plane and a tiny error in elevation leads to a large error in the range where the shot “lands” (crosses the flight altitude of the target).

An AA gunner has great difficulty is estimating whether his shots are landing too short or too long and on top of that, ranges keep changing - it is not the same as land artillery that shoot - observe the hit - and correct the next shot. AA gunner’s errors tend not to converge.

And range estimation errors are systematic - if you get it wrong you will not hit no matter how many shots you fire.

“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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At shallow angles, the range estimation has to be more accurate at long range than at short range for the projectile to hit a target that is flying at a constant altitude, since the danger space is smaller at long range, making it even more difficult to hit the target.

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1 hour ago, Bozon said:

Sure, but look at the low trajectories - you need to land the shot on top of the plane and a tiny error in elevation leads to a large error in the range where the shot “lands” (crosses the flight altitude of the target).

An AA gunner has great difficulty is estimating whether his shots are landing too short or too long and on top of that, ranges keep changing - it is not the same as land artillery that shoot - observe the hit - and correct the next shot. AA gunner’s errors tend not to converge.

And range estimation errors are systematic - if you get it wrong you will not hit no matter how many shots you fire.

And, for example, is it a difference between low altitude where the shells "lands" and  2500-3000 where the shells "lands" from the bottom at the same low angles? By the way, 37-40 mm and very often lower calibers used 1 m rangefinders.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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On 2/1/2023 at 8:50 PM, Bozon said:

It seems as if DCS treats AAA accuracy as a 2D error: calculate the correct solution and introduce an error in azimuth and elevation. This is the proper error for a laser weapon.
 

Real errors are 3D with the largest component being the range. You don’t just aim ahead of the target, you have to arc the shots, 192.168.100.1 192.168.1.1 especially at low elevation angles. Range estimation errors thus introduce an error to both the elevation (balistic arc) and the amount of lead that is required. Even if the target is coming straight at you, the gunner still has to continuously correct for range.

WWII AAA did not have laser range finders or radars to automatically update the range for the aiming solution. Thus aiming at a low flying plane from a distance was really really difficult. Imagine throwing a stone at an arc in such a way that it lands on top of a plane whizzing by. Most of the time they couldn’t even see if their shots are landing too short or too long relative to the target.

 

Nice conclusion


Edited by shaun paul
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