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PATRIOT has grossly overestimated launch range


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Nice to see the patriot fixed. But what about all the other SAM's affected by this kinematic bug? The Hawk being the most atrocious of the bunch.

I have made a post few months ago pointing how many missiles in the game have this weird unrealistic speed cap (as shown by @Default774),

This problem is affecting not only SAM's but also some air launched missiles.

 

EDIT: As an afterthought, I'm adding a track file showing how messed up the Hawk is currently with this bug. The speed cap makes the missile do a wrong impact point calculation, so when it finishes the burn it suddenly recalculate and feel the need to do a crazy turn to hit the target. So in the end it is basically unnable to properly hit any straight flying non-reacting target flying with an impact parameter greater than 20km (12mi).

Hawk_bad.trk


Edited by Skuva
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3 hours ago, Skuva said:

Nice to see the patriot fixed. But what about all the other SAM's affected by this kinematic bug? The Hawk being the most atrocious of the bunch.

I have made a post few months ago pointing how many missiles in the game have this weird unrealistic speed cap (as shown by @Default774),

This problem is affecting not only SAM's but also some air launched missiles.

 

EDIT: As an afterthought, I'm adding a track file showing how messed up the Hawk is currently with this bug. The speed cap makes the missile do a wrong impact point calculation, so when it finishes the burn it suddenly recalculate and feel the need to do a crazy turn to hit the target. So in the end it is basically unnable to properly hit any straight flying non-reacting target flying with an impact parameter greater than 20km (12mi).

Hawk_bad.trk 92 kB · 1 download

 

Good point, I went ahead and put this in its own thread

 

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On 5/19/2023 at 3:46 PM, Default774 said:

Addional bit of testing using SCUDs to test it in ABM. The terrible guidance makes it basically incapable of intercepting scuds unless they are fired directy at it(See abm1 miss, abm2 hit). This SAM system is really overdue some updates.

image.gif

patriot_abm2.trk 209.96 kB · 0 downloads patriot_abm1.trk 310.29 kB · 0 downloads patriot_abm2.acmi 178.89 kB · 0 downloads patriot_abm1.acmi 189.12 kB · 0 downloads

The performance of Patriot seem to be way below expected then, since the're able ( as it was recently proofed) to intercept Kh-47M2 Kinzhal missile... ?


Edited by 303_Kermit
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9 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

The performance of Patriot seem to be way below expected then, since the're able ( as it was recently proofed) to intercept Kh-47M2 Kinzhal missile... ?

 

The Kinzhal intercepts were done with PAC-3CRI missiles, Our in-game patriot uses PAC-2 missiles. Not applicable

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3 minutes ago, Default774 said:

The Kinzhal intercepts were done with PAC-3CRI missiles, Our in-game patriot uses PAC-2 missiles. Not applicable

  

               It depends, reality is not much different from your tacview. There was a longer version of video showing that last 2 launches were unsuccessful, but I can not find it now. The one before last did start flying and fell on ground. The last one ignited on ground but failed to fly. 6 persons who were publishing videos were arrested, so I guess there is an effort to remove the video from internet.

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2 hours ago, Default774 said:

Good point, I went ahead and put this in its own thread

 

Nice, but considering there are multiple missiles plagued by this problem I'm inclined to think there is some underlying problem that could well be affecting other systems not yet observed, so I think ED should maybe look somewhere else instead of just individual weapons values. Maybe we should open a more general Thread? Otherwise ED might endup only fixing the ones expecifically reported, so we will get only one missile fixed at a time every few months, and probably there will be a bunch which will never get fixed.


Edited by Skuva
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The SM-2, SA-11 and the previously mentioned HAWK all suffer from the high drag issue. The SM-2 being particularly noticeable, bleeding about 1.0 mach of speed in 5 seconds. If I find more SAMs that are still affected I will post.

For a funny comparison, here is the drag of the SM-2 compared to the Naval S300.

image.png

drag_comp.acmi drag_sa11.acmi drag_hawk.acmi drag_sm2.trk drag_comp.trk drag_sm2.acmi drag_sa11.trk drag_hawk.trk

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Am 19.5.2023 um 15:49 schrieb okopanja:

LOL, looks consistent with IRL performance. It did not shine in 90s, and in recent Saudi-Hutis conflict.

Although against aircraft it looks to have worked well, except IFF did not quite work as expected, so for better realism we may need that modeled as well.

Considering how Patriot compares with S-300 in Ukraine service, thats a pretty laughable claim. 2 Su-34s and two helicopters (including EW variants) shot down in a single day, well behind frontlines. Referencing the Israel and Saudi example is a staple of propaganda, but it doesnt actually tell that much about the system.

Very substantial data is, as usual, impossible to come by. But those silly high russian brochure numbers for S-300/400 clearly arent believable anymore. Nor is the myth of Patriot underperformance.

I suppose mods dont want us to discuss the topic with IRL examples, however.


Edited by Temetre
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53 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Considering how Patriot compares with S-300 in Ukraine service, thats a pretty laughable claim. 2 Su-34s and two helicopters (including EW variants) shot down in a single day, well behind frontlines. Referencing the Israel and Saudi example is a staple of propaganda, but it doesnt actually tell that much about the system.

Very substantial data is, as usual, impossible to come by. But those silly high russian brochure numbers for S-300/400 clearly arent believable anymore. Nor is the myth of Patriot underperformance.

I suppose mods dont want us to discuss the topic with IRL examples, however.

 

Trying to figure out your thought process, but I fail to see any coherence. Mixing unrelated events and not even being able to quote them correctly.

Can you show us the targets that got down during last salvo launch?

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb okopanja:

Trying to figure out your thought process, but I fail to see any coherence. Mixing unrelated events and not even being able to quote them correctly.

Can you show us the targets that got down during last salvo launch?

Fact is that targets were engaged that were under no threat of S-300 systems. Despite high claims of this system.

If you wanna be more critical, then you should apply the same level of scrutiny to your Saudi example. 


Edited by Temetre
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5 hours ago, Temetre said:

Fact is that targets were engaged that were under no threat of S-300 systems. Despite high claims of this system.

If you wanna be more critical, then you should apply the same level of scrutiny to your Saudi example. 

 

Stop derailing the topic. Patriot in DCS had obviosly bad performance for long time. I think it is good that it got fixed.

However it is wrong to request more without providing evidence and bringing further unrelated claims.

Comparing two very much different missiles based purely on relative DCS performance, is also wrong if person does not provide solid evidence or detailed calculation that proves ED' calculations are wrong.

So, show us the math. Anything else is crude attempt to upvote the case.

 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb okopanja:

Stop derailing the topic. Patriot in DCS had obviosly bad performance for long time. I think it is good that it got fixed.

However it is wrong to request more without providing evidence and bringing further unrelated claims.

Comparing two very much different missiles based purely on relative DCS performance, is also wrong if person does not provide solid evidence or detailed calculation that proves ED' calculations are wrong.

So, show us the math. Anything else is crude attempt to upvote the case.

Again, I was quoting your comment because your references were extremely crude as well.

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On 5/28/2023 at 11:08 PM, okopanja said:

Stop derailing the topic. Patriot in DCS had obviosly bad performance for long time. I think it is good that it got fixed.

However it is wrong to request more without providing evidence and bringing further unrelated claims.

 

its not fixed last i checked, but i have provided evidence direct to ED. my current biggest point of contention is that it fires too many interceptors per engagement, and it fires when its pK (probability of kill) is too low

unfortunately, i havent messed with tacview enough to find those tracks , or find the DCS track files, but theres no way it should ever burn thru 6 missiles on a su-25

second, if you only have 38 missiles on a site (a non-permanent pac2 site, that is) its unrealistic to be that wasteful of missiles on a single abt

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