Orion stick axis centering too weak, help!

[joebelter]

   Hello I swapped out my Warhog HOTAS with a WinWing Orion2.

The F16 stick axis is really too easy to move when I put my hand on the stick.  Resting my hand on the grip and staying still takes concentration and the centering "Spring" is really weak. I originally bought a stick extention thinking I'd need one for easy motion, and with that on, the stick can't stay centered at all. It just flops to one axis or the other.  If I take the extention off I DOES center, but as I tried to describe its not a strong or smooth center.

  I was really hoping for a nice centering with smooth motion not something that takes very little pressure.

  Any ideas what's going on? Is there an adjustment?

  Please help!

   Joe

[Lange_666]

I see that they have an extension set including different springs: https://wwsimstore.com/view/goods-details.html?id=370
It also includes a dampening device.

Or find a spring supplier which has something similar (same size, but heavier) on offer.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Lange_666

[Brother_Leb]

Short of getting stiffer springs (and I haven't been able to determine the gauge of the WW springs on my Orion Hornet stick), I think your best bet is to add a little deadzone in DCS and see if that works for you. Also, WW has a warning on the page for the extension kit that says it's not recommended for the Orion stick (probably because of the spring strength, though it doesn't say).

I know from reading comparo reviews of TMWH vs WW vs VKB vs Virpil, etc. that the Warthog stick has fairly stiff centering force compared to the others and this is seen (by some) as a drawback to the Warthog. IMO, to each his own, but I can imagine going from Warthog to Orion would take getting used to because of that difference.

I went from a TM T16000 flight stick to the Orion and it took a while to get used to the lightness of the stick. I believe the centering force of the T16000 is less than the Warthog, so I'm not surprised the Orion feels too light for you. After getting used to it for a bit, I'm now very comfortable with the lighter centering force and I like that the transition across the center of the axes is pretty smooth (and in some cases, like in close formation, not quite smooth enough for me).

So, don't give up too quickly. Ultimately it will give you more fine control, which is valuable if you fly non-FBW platforms or do any formation flying. BUT if it's really bugging you, maybe go for new springs, either directly from WW or bring one of the springs in your Orion to a local hardware store and see if they can match gauge and length and then see if they've got slightly stiffer ones with the dimensions (length at least, gauge will probably determine stiffness in most cases).

[joebelter]

  Thanks for the feedback!  You've NAILED my problem right on the head.  I didn't see the warning on the extention darn it.  There's $80 down the tubes!  I fly the Harrier in a squadron and have really worked HARD on trying to get my Warthog to be half as tight as this with all the mods, and WOW - didn't realize what I was in for.  I can see that if I can get used to it I'm sure it will benifit my flying as it's MUCH more precise.  Overall it's been a WONDERFUL upgrade, but I guess I'd gotten used to something that needed lots more shoving this way and that.

 Appreciate your help!

   Joe

[Lange_666]

The gimbals of WW, Virpil and VKB are in a league of there own compared to what TM has to offer. Their Cougar gimbals where just nothing but crap (i replaced mine with an Ubermod as soon as got the possibility), the overall idea for the Warthog is better but there is just way to much friction on the plastic parts compared to the latest designs the competition uses. And those that say they have no friction or that it doesn't bother them have never laid their hands on a stick with one of those gimbals.   

[Dogger Dude]

would the dampening kit help stiffen up a weak stick that has the extension? im having the same issue as the OP 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dogger Dude

[MustangSally]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:16 AM, Dogger Dude said:

would the dampening kit help stiffen up a weak stick that has the extension? im having the same issue as the OP 

 

The dampeners are designed to be fitted without the springs.....helicopters

[trevoC]

17 minutes ago, MustangSally said:

The dampeners are designed to be fitted without the springs.....helicopters

He means the cam kit and yes... get 1 or 2 cam kits and you'll have too much centering strength if you like.

[trevoC]

a lot is going to be preference.

first of all, the f-16 would not have any of this feel as it barely moves at all. In this case, winwing is the only company I know that sells the pressure sensor kit for the orion. If its all about the f-16 for you, buy that.

Personally, I feel the orion2 (without extension) is fine as most aircraft don't have a strong centering action or it would be tiresome to fly approaches etc....

Other aircrafts centering action comes alot from the forces acting against the ailerons/elevators if they are not hydraulicly assisted for example.

You'll never get it right for a broad range of aircraft like are available in DCS. Its always going to be preference. 

I prefer the less centering action like is available as stock but it would definitely be too little with the extension which is why the cam kit is available... to set the joystick for your preference.

[AvgWhiteGuy]

Got this stick a couple months ago and was not happy with the centering return spring either. But what was more confusing was the stick allows a twist of more than 90 degrees with absolutely no  resistance or return to centerline. Is there something I missed in the setup that allows this and can be removed-locked in a normal center position?

I've gone back to my Warthog but would be interested in using this again WITHOUT any twist allowed.

[AlpineGTA]

I've noticed a problem with the grip twisting too. I have the screw down collar as tight as I can make it and the small grub screw that's supposed to stop it moving as tight as it will go, most of the time it's ok, but sometimes, in a heated dogfight or something, if I pull a bit harder on the stick I can feel it twist. I never had this issue with my VKB. I think they have a much easier and better way of attaching their sticks.

Regarding the OP, it sounds like you need the spring and cams kit. Did you ever purchase it to resolve your issue? I bought the cams and damper kit with my stick and throttle. I haven't tried them because I don't have an extension but the stiffest springs really do feel very strong and obviously aimed at being used with the extension. I actually fitted the softest springs with the no centre cams because I prefer a light stick and I also installed the dampeners to reduce the waggle back and forth that you get when releasing the stick to centre.

[MustangSally]

11 hours ago, AvgWhiteGuy said:

Got this stick a couple months ago and was not happy with the centering return spring either. But what was more confusing was the stick allows a twist of more than 90 degrees with absolutely no  resistance or return to centerline. Is there something I missed in the setup that allows this and can be removed-locked in a normal center position?

I've gone back to my Warthog but would be interested in using this again WITHOUT any twist allowed.

The only reason you have a twisting movement in the grip is tightness. You haven't tightened the knurled nut correctly and more than likely haven't secured the grub screw in the flat section of the grips thread.

[AvgWhiteGuy]

Appreciate the response on this...

@AlpineGTA ....I'll take that recommendation for the 'spring & cam kits' and will order asap. Living in Shanghai, the delivery is only a day or so away. 

@MustangSally...if I tighten the base screw collar to a snug fit, the hole for the 'grub screw' is almost 120 degrees counterclockwise away from the flat portion of the threaded insert. I'm thinking that there may be a washer or 2 missing from the kit that might solved this problem, and I didn't want to phuck up the threads. I'll try making a washer first then consider grinding a new flat spot.

I'm glad to hear this model (without any Z-axis ) is NOT supposed to rotate freely and happy to try & fly again.

Thanks,