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F-15E SECONDARY Air-to-Air Role


Horns

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I know the title will already have drawn some eye-rolls, and with good reason, but we all know this will come up sooner or later. I'd appreciate it if y'all could indulge me here. I know there has been some talk about the Strike Eagle's air to air ability, but as far as I can tell that was within discussions focusing on other things. I couldn't find any dedicated topics on this.

I know the Strike Eagle designed with the air-to-air mission in mind just slightly more than the AJS Viggen - they both just happen to use the same airframe as their fighter-focused cousins. The F-15E was conceptualized and built in response to the USAF's strike requirement - still, it is listed as a multirole aircraft, so it seems reasonable to wonder just how well it compares in that role to other fighters in the sim and beyond. It seems well documented that it doesn't maneuver quite as well as the Charlie, so maybe it's lucky that the Mudhen is unlikely to ever face the F-15C in a conflict. Beyond that, however, how does it compare to something it might actually fight?

Given the info we have on maneuvering vs the Charlie, for the sake of argument, let's assume the Mudhen doesn't want to wind up at guns only against any other 4th gen fighter. The core question is: Does it have a competitive advantage at any range against the other 4th gen platforms? If a couple of Strike Eagles were vectored to intercept, say, a couple of Flankers or Fulcrums, how would they rate their chances at 20 NMs in a neutral position? How about at 10? Would the engaged Strike Eagle drivers be best off fighting the machine or the pilot? Or would they be better off using a couple of piddle packs and split-s'ing in the other direction?

I'd love to get hold of any books that cover the air-to air role of the F-15E in depth (even if they are mostly about the air-to-ground role). If anyone knows of any, I'd appreciate it if you could post their names. I'm not so interested in operational histories (unless there's a whole lot of 4th gen air-to-air combat I'm unaware of), I'm more interested in capabilities, given the sad lack of West vs East shooting wars (ofc I'm kidding).

Thanks for reading.

 

 

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It has a long range radar, but it's still limited to it's missiles range. So at BVR it's at a disadvantage to say a Tomcat, that can fire a Phoenix long before the SE can fire an AMRAAM. Same with any other longer range missile capable aircraft. Especially ones that are more maneuverable. The SE is a bomb truck that can self escort, but don't expect it to be a PVP king. It can't reach Tomcats at range, and it can't out maneuver Tomcats, 16's, 18's, Su-27, MiG-29 etc in ACM. It's not a 15C.



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3 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

It has a long range radar, but it's still limited to it's missiles range. So at BVR it's at a disadvantage to say a Tomcat, that can fire a Phoenix long before the SE can fire an AMRAAM. Same with any other longer range missile capable aircraft. Especially ones that are more maneuverable. The SE is a bomb truck that can self escort, but don't expect it to be a PVP king. It can't reach Tomcats at range, and it can't out maneuver Tomcats, 16's, 18's, Su-27, MiG-29 etc in ACM. It's not a 15C.



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Awesome, exactly what I was asking, thank you. I didn't realize it would be inferior at range and up close against 'Cats!


Edited by Horns
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5 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

It has a long range radar, but it's still limited to it's missiles range. So at BVR it's at a disadvantage to say a Tomcat, that can fire a Phoenix long before the SE can fire an AMRAAM.

That's only if the Tomcat is in an advantageous position. The AMRAAM can easily exceed 60 miles, what's holding it back is not its motor but launch platform radar. The F-15 has the speed and avionics to make AMRAAM a better missile than the Phoenix even at long range.

5 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Same with any other longer range missile capable aircraft. Especially ones that are more maneuverable. The SE is a bomb truck that can self escort, but don't expect it to be a PVP king. It can't reach Tomcats at range, and it can't out maneuver Tomcats, 16's, 18's, Su-27, MiG-29 etc in ACM. It's not a 15C.

The E is penalized by extra weight and drag, but the 229 engines are immensely powerful. Loaded for air to air, it will be competitive against the entire existing DCS roster. F-15C's will be able to drop tanks and go faster and maneuver better at altitude, but the E won't be so far behind as to be helpless. For comparison, it will definitely outspeed the F-18 if both are carrying a typical CAP load. A Tomcat with AIM-54's will also be slower. In terms of maneuver the E might fall behind both at high altitude during BVR and lower speeds in dogfights, but in the initial engagement, the 229's with their acceleration will make it a tough adversary.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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👆 What he said.

F-15E is going to plenty dangerous. Both the F-16 and F-18 are radar limited at high speed, high alt BVR, not limited by Aim-120 range.

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I just gazed deeply into my crystal ball and this is what I saw:
When people find out about the F-15Es radar and situational awareness capabilities they will praise it as the new ultimate air-to-air platform in the BVR theatre.
When their victims finally exploit the F-15Es disadvantages in air-to-air, the community will demand with a deafening noise level an option to remove the CFTs to have a ‘pure’ F-15 being as close as possible to the F-15C or the guys from IDF Mods will try to create a F-15C Mod around the F-15E avionics.

 

Ok, ok - I know. You don’t need a crystal ball to foresee that…

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Yeah, no

The 16 has the same AMRAAM missiles, and even at altitude and speed it still has to wait after it locks a bandit before it can launch.
By the time an SE launches, a Tomcat's Phoenix has already halfway flown towards it.

IRL when Tomcats and SE's practiced BVR against each other, the Tomcats were only allowed to use Sparrows, because with Phoenix's, the SE's couldn't win.

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17 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

A Tomcat with AIM-54's will also be slower. 

Not by my experience.  I've gotten the F-14A with 4/2/2 loadout to 1.6M above 53,000ft.  According to the -1, an F-15E with -229 motors CFTs, 8AAMs, and pods can only reach 48,000ft at that speed on a standard day and no faster than ~1.7M at any altitude.  Ditching the pods might help some, but not enough to make up a 5,000ft deficit.  (Altitude it what matters for a Phoenix)

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6 minutes ago, Rifter said:

I just gazed deeply into my crystal ball and this is what I saw:
When people find out about the F-15Es radar and situational awareness capabilities they will praise it as the new ultimate air-to-air platform in the BVR theatre.
When their victims finally exploit the F-15Es disadvantages in air-to-air, the community will demand with a deafening noise level an option to remove the CFTs to have a ‘pure’ F-15 being as close as possible to the F-15C or the guys from IDF Mods will try to create a F-15C Mod around the F-15E avionics.

 

Ok, ok - I know. You don’t need a crystal ball to foresee that…

Haha - part of the reason I posted this was that I realized that, being completely honest, much of my interest in the Mudhen was really about hoping it would be an F-15C that could also carry bombs, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that way. I'm curious just how <profanity> out of luck we're going to be when we learn the truth 😂

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3 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

The 16 has the same AMRAAM missiles, and even at altitude and speed it still has to wait after it locks a bandit before it can launch.

That isn't my experience with the current F-16 radar in the sim. Its hopeless if there is any look down component and its range against other fighter sized targets is much shorter than the kinematic ability of the Amraam when launched supersonic and at high alt. 

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Just did a quick Google, the Phoenix had an operational range of 100nm. The AMRAAM C 57nm. Even the new D has an operational range of 87nm. So at equal altitude, speed, etc. The Tomcat has a huge advantage of nearly double the range.

That's IRL of course. How well the module will do, we'll have to wait and see.

The big advantage in the SE will be situational awareness.

An F-14D vs the F-15E would draw that level again since the D has link16 and the same radar.

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35 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Not by my experience.  I've gotten the F-14A with 4/2/2 loadout to 1.6M above 53,000ft.  According to the -1, an F-15E with -229 motors CFTs, 8AAMs, and pods can only reach 48,000ft at that speed on a standard day and no faster than ~1.7M at any altitude.  Ditching the pods might help some, but not enough to make up a 5,000ft deficit.  (Altitude it what matters for a Phoenix)

Don't forget to factor in acceleration though, as both planes would likely be subsonic before they detected each other. The Strike Eagle has some speed limitations that the C does not, but the acceleration is still decently good depending on loadout.

21 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Just did a quick Google, the Phoenix had an operational range of 100nm. The AMRAAM C 57nm. Even the new D has an operational range of 87nm. So at equal altitude, speed, etc. The Tomcat has a huge advantage of nearly double the range.

That's IRL of course. How well the module will do, we'll have to wait and see.

The big advantage in the SE will be situational awareness.

An F-14D vs the F-15E would draw that level again since the D has link16 and the same radar.

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Range numbers need to be paired with firing conditions though, or they are hard to use. What we do know right now is that the F-15C with AMRAAM holds the record for the longest air to air kill according to the USAF:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40184/f-15-eagle-scores-longest-known-air-to-air-missile-shot-during-u-s-air-force-test

Also while the Super Tomcat and Strike Eagle have similar radar technology, they don't use exactly the same unit. The Tomcat used the 71, the Strike Eagle the 70. Sadly both the Tomcat and the Eagle never reached their full potential in any case with the wind down of the Cold War, budget cuts, and newer planes incoming. I'd have loved to see F-14D's in extended service along with F-15F's (F-15C with all the improvements gained with the E, and refocused for air to air).

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Range numbers need to be paired with firing conditions though, or they are hard to use. What we do know right now is that the F-15C with AMRAAM holds the record for the longest air to air kill according to the USAF:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40184/f-15-eagle-scores-longest-known-air-to-air-missile-shot-during-u-s-air-force-test
Also while the Super Tomcat and Strike Eagle have similar radar technology, they don't use exactly the same unit. The Tomcat used the 71, the Strike Eagle the 70. Sadly both the Tomcat and the Eagle never reached their full potential in any case with the wind down of the Cold War, budget cuts, and newer planes incoming. I'd have loved to see F-14D's in extended service along with F-15F's (F-15C with all the improvements gained with the E, and refocused for air to air).
Yeah definitely a shame. The decks of the Carriers should be filled with beautiful Tomcats, and not ugly 35's.

The AMRAAM used in that test was a D model though, which we don't have.

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F-15E has an excellent radar, very powerful engines, and AMRAAMs. It will be a very powerful contender in BVR, will be one of the best, probably THE overall best there until Eurofighter arrives. When it comes to dogfighting, it is both heavier and draggier than an F-15C, with some thrust. I don't know the exact number, but I'd say it is a safe assumtion that it's dogfighting performance should be less than F-15C. Also, at least initially, it won't have AIM-9X and JHMCS either, which could leave it vulnerable to aircraft with high off-boresight missiles paired with helmet sights in dogfight ranges. But, it should still be decent contender even there when flown well, and if the opponent makes a mistake.

 

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Should be making a distinction between game world and real world.  In the real world it's a team sport, phoenix don't exist no more, tomcats barely, vipers and hornets are mainly on the same side, so quite capable to hold that line. 

Game world, does it really matter.

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1 hour ago, WinterH said:

F-15E has an excellent radar, very powerful engines, and AMRAAMs. It will be a very powerful contender in BVR, will be one of the best, probably THE overall best there until Eurofighter arrives. When it comes to dogfighting, it is both heavier and draggier than an F-15C, with some thrust. I don't know the exact number, but I'd say it is a safe assumtion that it's dogfighting performance should be less than F-15C. Also, at least initially, it won't have AIM-9X and JHMCS either, which could leave it vulnerable to aircraft with high off-boresight missiles paired with helmet sights in dogfight ranges. But, it should still be decent contender even there when flown well, and if the opponent makes a mistake.

 

The F15E - F18 thread gets really indepth about the F15E's ACM. It won't be definitively better or worse, just different and it will ultimately come down to who is the better pilot. 

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grafik.png

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According to the F-15E flight manual from 1993 the Strike Eagle is quite subsceptical to flight departure at high AOA due to high weight and lateral asymmetry contribution (due to the nature of air-2-ground load outs).
Also CFTs are mentioned prominently often in the flight characteristics chapter in terms of ‘if CFTs are installed, the following is be observed:…’.

Also the remarks for the out-of-control flight characteristics don’t sound too heartening.


From that I cannot imagine that the USAF encouraged the Strike Eagle Drivers to go into fully blown air-to-air engagements beyond self defence cases with jettisoned weapons and fuel bags.


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The F-15E, as long as it doesn't engage in a "contact" dogfight, has exactly the same dogfight capabilities as the F-15C. I'd venture even bigger - why? Because in theory it is able to accelerate to a much higher speed, which in the case of BvR combat is the basis - speed and height. In fact, in all conflicts where the F-15E was involved and where there was a potential threat from enemy fighters, they had F-15C escorts everywhere to keep them calm. So the F-15E did not actually fight in real dogfights with a relatively equal opponent.

As far as the realities of DCS... two things - If the radar in A-A mode works as it should - and not like the F-16 or F/A-18 which are blind as moles without Datalink16 support - it will be as deadly as the current F -15C in BvR. The second issue is the question of performance - speed and height. If they be "right" then the F-15E should basically be as effective as the F-15C today. Launching and hitting the AiM-120C5 from around 60 miles is easily doable. Just like escaping from basically every rocket fired at him. Of course, it all depends on what and how a particular "player" is doing.

F-15 - their entire family was not created as fighters for a typical dogfight, they are planes for ranged combat above all.

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Regarding the F-15E airframe supposed maneuverability / dogfighting capabilities...

Well, just speculating as a mere jet fighter enthusiast, I would imagine that, with:

- full gun ammo;

- 2 Sidewinders;

- a somewhat low percentage of internal fuel;

I believe it could manage to surprise positively a lot of people; easily win in ACM vs a Mirage F1, for instance ?

 

I mean, it's an airframe with big wings, very powerful engines, also I imagine it isn't AoA limited like the F-16.

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10 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

Regarding the F-15E airframe supposed maneuverability / dogfighting capabilities...

Well, just speculating as a mere jet fighter enthusiast, I would imagine that, with:

- full gun ammo;

- 2 Sidewinders;

- a somewhat low percentage of internal fuel;

I believe it could manage to surprise positively a lot of people; easily win in ACM vs a Mirage F1, for instance ?

 

I mean, it's an airframe with big wings, very powerful engines, also I imagine it isn't AoA limited like the F-16.

Something to note though in comparison to the F-15C is the E model only has around 500 rounds of gun ammo whereas the C has like 1200.

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I'm not super-knowledgeable on the Eagle, but always though max rounds for F-15C was 1000 rounds, but normally about 800 was carried. Could be relevant to F-15A instead perhaps, or could be entirely wrong.

F-15E carrying 500 tops does make some sense to be honest. It has lots of extra weight, and the second seat as well as avionics would take some space too. It isn't expected to use its gun for strafing too much, as it's mostly intented to either use standoff weapons or do one-pass-haul-ass attacks with conventional bombs, nor is it expected to be a dogfighter unless things go awry somewhere.

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1 hour ago, WinterH said:

I'm not super-knowledgeable on the Eagle, but always though max rounds for F-15C was 1000 rounds, but normally about 800 was carried. Could be relevant to F-15A instead perhaps, or could be entirely wrong.

F-15E carrying 500 tops does make some sense to be honest. It has lots of extra weight, and the second seat as well as avionics would take some space too. It isn't expected to use its gun for strafing too much, as it's mostly intented to either use standoff weapons or do one-pass-haul-ass attacks with conventional bombs, nor is it expected to be a dogfighter unless things go awry somewhere.

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104501/f-15-eagle/

 

It was always 940 rounds in F-15C. Nothing more and mby sometimes little less...


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According to this IRL F15E pilot the F/A18C will have problems...

 https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-basic-difference-s-between-F-15-Eagle-and-F-15E-Strike-Eagle#:~:text=What is the difference between,has a darker paint job.

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Professional aviatrix.Upvoted by , F/A-18C pilotAuthor has 697 answers and 1.7M answer viewsUpdated Sep 5

Never flew the F-16 against the F-18. Like most fights it often comes down to experience. The F-15 can out turn the F-18 above 350 kts, the F-18 has an advantage below 350kts. Where the F-18 really suffers is drag and power. In the Eagle I never had a problem getting slow with a Hornet, I could fly my plane around 100kts and keep up with he Hornet, the advantage I enjoyed was power, even slow I could out climb and out power the Hornet. In more of an ACM environment, when we accelerated we could pick up 100kts in 3 sec or so, the Hornet would picked up around 60 kts, over time I would have the speed and power to exploit the vertical or out rate the Hornet. Now, if an Eagle pilot is not good at slow speed fights, they will lose to a good Hornet pilot….quickly. When I had about 700 hours in the Eagle I went out with my flight lead and we did a 2v2 with Hornets, after two longer range setups(35–40nm), we had enough gas to do a 2v2 visual butterfly setup(full up for both planes), with post merge kills. A fight that should in theory favor the Hornet. My flight lead died 5 seconds after the merge(he turned the wrong way). So I was left to fight 2 Hornets. The fight that transitioned from a close in turning fight, to a more expanded fight, a vertical fight and back to a turning fight many times over. I slowly worked my energy up, expanding the fight to get weapons separation, and shot one Hornet, then proceeded to kill the second one at the floor with the gun. I truly think they believed they had me dead to rights after my flight lead died. That there was no way they could lose. They were wrong. Good times! 🙂

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