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Mission 10 - 2x SA-6 comitting suicide? (+ carrier taxi mess)


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When releasing one HARM each with Sluggo, both targets die before the HARMs get there (so the HARMs miss of course, and the incoming missiles disappear). Does it happen to make life easier and the mission to be more survivable?

Oh, and waiting to my launch behind the JBD on CAT2, the next Hornet on my right, taxiing to CAT 1 runs into my aircraft. If I'm not standing there, and leave him  enough space,  he taxies all the way out until just behind JBD on CAT 2, then a sharp right turn back to line up to CAT 1. Crazy...


Edited by Razor18
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  • Razor18 changed the title to Mission 10 - 2x SA-6 comitting suicide? (+ carrier taxi mess)

I just tried this mission, and I can confirm that my flight lead SLUGGO is suicidal.

The briefing told me to follow SLUGGO unless told otherwise, so I did. He turned south towards WP3 and I could see 2x SA-6 batteries near some mountains. I could see them on TOO but SLUGGO didn't say anything so I just kept flying his wing.

The SA-6 sites both locked me. Nothing from SLUGGO. No radio comms, no evasive actions..nothing.

Both SA-6 sites fired on me. I can visually see the smoke trails from the missiles. SLUGGO still says nothing, and he keeps flying towards the threat. I was forced to break off and go defensive after firing a HARM at each site.

First HARM only did about 25% dmg, and apparently the 2nd HARM missed because I never saw a kill message. I checked the SA page and both SLUGGO and Rickshaw are still flying towards the SA-6 sites. Obviously something broke in the mission, but at this point I'm already an hour in and I feel like the entire mission was wasted. I logged off.

Disappointing.


Edited by key_stroked
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Sorry for a spoiler, but Sluggo definitely releases and calls out a Magnum to the Northern Dump truck, and orders Flip to attack the south one. He even says "I shoot first, then you" or something similar. My remark about suicide was about both dump truck sa-6,  they blow up themselves way before the HARMs get there. Watch it on TacView, if you have it


Edited by Razor18
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/28/2023 at 1:27 AM, key_stroked said:

I just tried this mission, and I can confirm that my flight lead SLUGGO is suicidal.

The briefing told me to follow SLUGGO unless told otherwise, so I did. He turned south towards WP3 and I could see 2x SA-6 batteries near some mountains. I could see them on TOO but SLUGGO didn't say anything so I just kept flying his wing.

The SA-6 sites both locked me. Nothing from SLUGGO. No radio comms, no evasive actions..nothing.

Both SA-6 sites fired on me. I can visually see the smoke trails from the missiles. SLUGGO still says nothing, and he keeps flying towards the threat. I was forced to break off and go defensive after firing a HARM at each site.

First HARM only did about 25% dmg, and apparently the 2nd HARM missed because I never saw a kill message. I checked the SA page and both SLUGGO and Rickshaw are still flying towards the SA-6 sites. Obviously something broke in the mission, but at this point I'm already an hour in and I feel like the entire mission was wasted. I logged off.

Disappointing.

 

 

 

Yes this exact thing just happened to me too. I was just on SLUGGO's wing and we were heading towards LUKE and I've stopped getting all radio messages (checked my comms). I had to break off and defend and then launched my HARMs. Still no messages from SLUGGO. I'll have to replay the mission and see if it happens again. 

 

 

@baltic_dragon

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Hey guys. OK, the thing that OP described is a safeguard built in in case Sluggo misses with the HARM, which AI often did in the past breaking the mission. So I added this just in case. Then what @kflashdescribes is another AI quirk where it is broken to a point where it just does not do what is it told to. Mind you this mission worked fine until recently and I didn't touch anything with it, the DCS update broke it most likely. There is nothing I can do about this as 3rd party dev, only go back to things that used to work and fix them - which, believe me, is much more frustrating than just flying a mission that stops working 🙂 this is something one has to get used to playing campaigns in DSC, it has been like that, is like that and will be like that in the future to. In the meantime I'll try to fix this for the next udpate, thanks for the report.  

As for the carrier taxi mess - this is also out of my hands. One thing Raven One taught me is to make smaller missions in the future, this is too ambitious project it seems for the AI to handle correctly and it breaks too often, even if when it works it is great.


Edited by baltic_dragon
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4 hours ago, baltic_dragon said:

Hey guys. OK, the thing that OP described is a safeguard built in in case Sluggo misses with the HARM, which AI often did in the past breaking the mission. So I added this just in case. Then what @kflashdescribes is another AI quirk where it is broken to a point where it just does not do what is it told to. Mind you this mission worked fine until recently and I didn't touch anything with it, the DCS update broke it most likely. There is nothing I can do about this as 3rd party dev, only go back to things that used to work and fix them - which, believe me, is much more frustrating than just flying a mission that stops working 🙂 this is something one has to get used to playing campaigns in DSC, it has been like that, is like that and will be like that in the future to. In the meantime I'll try to fix this for the next udpate, thanks for the report.  

As for the carrier taxi mess - this is also out of my hands. One thing Raven One taught me is to make smaller missions in the future, this is too ambitious project it seems for the AI to handle correctly and it breaks too often, even if when it works it is great.

 

@baltic_dragonThanks for the update! I’m loving dominant fury (after playing raven one). Sometimes it is hard to tell if I didn’t trigger something correctly or if it’s a bug.

 

 

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First of all, thanks @baltic_dragon for the effort in developing and maintaining your campaigns after the numerous DCS patches. I love both Raven One and Dominant Fury.

I have just flown this myself and something seems to be off.

Possible spoilers below.

Spoiler

The situation on the ship is no issue. I get told to go to CAT2 and it's blocked by 2 Cutlasses, so I let them and go after, this is approximately the time when Sluggo takes CAT1.

We take care of the 2 SA-6s, but Sluggo engages quite late and there are already 3 missiles flying at me. I defend and as I saw on Tacview your safeguard kicked in and removed said missiles and the SA-6s.

Then we proceed to monitor some Migs and Sluggo engages Hat Boxes, I am covering him but no need... he got them.

After this there is no more radio comms. I want to refuel badly, but still following Sluggo around... when we move towards mother I am low on fuel... Tanker nowhere to be found. Sadly not enough fuel to come back home.

So I guess my question is.. Should I turn home after covering Sluggo doing his job with Hat Boxes? I bring back 2 HARMs as well, seems to be a shame.

 

Please advise, thanks!


Edited by Creasy85
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4 hours ago, Creasy85 said:

First of all, thanks @baltic_dragon for the effort in developing and maintaining your campaigns after the numerous DCS patches. I love both Raven One and Dominant Fury.

I have just flown this myself and something seems to be off.

Possible spoilers below.

  Reveal hidden contents

The situation on the ship is no issue. I get told to go to CAT2 and it's blocked by 2 Cutlasses, so I let them and go after, this is approximately the time when Sluggo takes CAT1.

We take care of the 2 SA-6s, but Sluggo engages quite late and there are already 3 missiles flying at me. I defend and as I saw on Tacview your safeguard kicked in and removed said missiles and the SA-6s.

Then we proceed to monitor some Migs and Sluggo engages Hat Boxes, I am covering him but no need... he got them.

After this there is no more radio comms. I want to refuel badly, but still following Sluggo around... when we move towards mother I am low on fuel... Tanker nowhere to be found. Sadly not enough fuel to come back home.

So I guess my question is.. Should I turn home after covering Sluggo doing his job with Hat Boxes? I bring back 2 HARMs as well, seems to be a shame.

 

Please advise, thanks!

 

Did the SA3 not engage Sluggo on his run-in? He called defending, and the 3 popped up on my TOO page, so I engaged and destroyed it with HARM. I brought one HARM back.

My problem is, the mission won't acknowledge as complete. I refueled, followed him to the boat, and landed with DCS Marshal comms as directed. However, no mission completion, score 50...

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12 hours ago, Sandman1330 said:

Did the SA3 not engage Sluggo on his run-in? He called defending, and the 3 popped up on my TOO page, so I engaged and destroyed it with HARM. I brought one HARM back.

My problem is, the mission won't acknowledge as complete. I refueled, followed him to the boat, and landed with DCS Marshal comms as directed. However, no mission completion, score 50...

They didn't engage him, he dropped 2 AGM88s disabling them and then followed with 3 run ins with cannon until nothing was left. After this he just followed his predefined waypoints in radio silence.

On my second playthrough, exactly the same scenario. But he somehow manged to crash into mountain after taking care of the SA3s. Again no radio comms from anyone after this point. I returned to carrier using standard comms and got 80 points, finished mission. As good as it gets for me I think. Moving on.


Edited by Creasy85
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16 hours ago, Creasy85 said:

They didn't engage him, he dropped 2 AGM88s disabling them and then followed with 3 run ins with cannon until nothing was left. After this he just followed his predefined waypoints in radio silence.

On my second playthrough, exactly the same scenario. But he somehow manged to crash into mountain after taking care of the SA3s. Again no radio comms from anyone after this point. I returned to carrier using standard comms and got 80 points, finished mission. As good as it gets for me I think. Moving on.

 

Huh, strange! I played that mission yesterday and all went well, except the inability to complete after landing.

I don’t envy campaign creators these days, chasing new bugs every update!


Edited by Sandman1330

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/18/2023 at 4:57 PM, Creasy85 said:

They didn't engage him, he dropped 2 AGM88s disabling them and then followed with 3 run ins with cannon until nothing was left. After this he just followed his predefined waypoints in radio silence.

On my second playthrough, exactly the same scenario. But he somehow manged to crash into mountain after taking care of the SA3s. Again no radio comms from anyone after this point. I returned to carrier using standard comms and got 80 points, finished mission. As good as it gets for me I think. Moving on.

 

This is exactly what I’m experiencing.  Flew the mission twice and same both times.  After he wipes out the HAT BOX with guns he just flies off to nowhere in silence.  For what it’s worth, the SA-3 radar never showed more than a search radar on the RWR which Sluggo took out with the HARM first thing before switching to guns.  I’m playing with a clean install, no mods version of the multi-threading DCS.  Maybe the recent changes to the  RWR that DCS did broke it?

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First of all I wanted to say thank you to baltic_dragon for such a detailed campaign (it's really satisfying to read briefings alone) and I can only imagine how much effort it took and how frustrating is dealing with constant changes and weird AI behavior.

My experience with this mission: I also got 80 score despite I completed all tasks, I think the reason is the safeguard BD described above: both SA-6 had been destroyed (with trigger or some other logic) before Sluggo and mine HARMs got a chance to reach them.

I repeated this mission 3 or 4 times and didn't have any problems with AI taxing, Sluggo ordered me to launch at southern SA-6 and launched at northern first as expected. When engaging SA-3 he launched his HARM first, then I got 3 on my TOO page, observed that it launched at Sluggo and destroyed it with my HARM.

I rather have a question from the mission design point of view: wouldn't it be considered too risky (or even desperate) for Sluggo to engage and merge with 4xFloggers taking off from the well-protected (with AAA in this case, but it might as well have been igladudes and god know what) airfield and ordering his wingman (Flip) to do the same, having dedicated air cover not that far? I understand that it might have been designed for "dramatic" purposes, but chance to lost SA, eat heater, shoot your wingman and die from AAA is pretty high. That was the reason I had to repeat this mission, eventually Sluggo hit 1xFlogger with AIM-9, I was lucky enough to hit 2xFloggers with AIM-9s too and then gun down the last remaining Flogger while evading AAA fire, but that was pretty intense. I'd honestly prefer to disengage and then commit at least having some separation and regaining SA.

 

Все написанное выше является моим оценочным суждением

Everything written above reflects my personal opinion

 

Занимаюсь "активной пропагандой Американцев на данном форуме" © Flanker

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  • 2 weeks later...

On the first part - so you're saying there is no improvement after the last update? I flew this part of the mission three times to test the fixes and each time it worked as it should for me, so I'd appreciate further feedback.

On the second part - I will have to ask Kevin to refresh my memory, but he based that engagement of a real-life event. Aircraft taking off are sitting ducks and if you are fast enough the AAA should not be a big problem there. I never had problems with this part of the mission when testing and I see  your point, which would be 100% valid if that was something pre-briefed. But let's turn the question around: if you extend and turn back to engage, you don't have AAA but you have 4 Floggers ready to fight you, which puts you at a greater disadvantage. Pure speculation at this point, but a very interesting question!

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20 hours ago, baltic_dragon said:

On the first part - so you're saying there is no improvement after the last update? I flew this part of the mission three times to test the fixes and each time it worked as it should for me, so I'd appreciate further feedback.

Do you mean improvement in terms of AI taxing or SA-6 engagement? For the former I didn't have any issues (other users reported here earlier) with it in the first place, maybe because I played this mission just recently and it was fixed already. For the latter I did observe both SA-6 die every time before our HARMs reached them, now for this one it might be not recent enough as I played it before the very last patch 2.8.4.389.47 came out (i.e. on the previous OB), so it might have been fixed in the current OB - someone playing it on the current and up needs to confirm.

20 hours ago, baltic_dragon said:

On the second part - I will have to ask Kevin to refresh my memory, but he based that engagement of a real-life event. Aircraft taking off are sitting ducks and if you are fast enough the AAA should not be a big problem there. I never had problems with this part of the mission when testing and I see  your point, which would be 100% valid if that was something pre-briefed. But let's turn the question around: if you extend and turn back to engage, you don't have AAA but you have 4 Floggers ready to fight you, which puts you at a greater disadvantage. Pure speculation at this point, but a very interesting question!

Yeah, probably it was just me being too slow with the engagement: at the moment when I merged with Floggers they were already capable of shooting heaters at me, so I died couple of times chasing one of them. As for your question, I personally (say playing on PvE server) would still extend and reengage: we have better missiles and SA capabilities for BVR engagement also CAP flight might be able to help us, but that's just me.

I'd understand the urgency component better if Sluggo provided some more details though, like: "we need to engage hostiles while they are taking off", but I know it's impossible to change audio conversations when campaign is out and providing it in mission notes would be a spoiler, it's not a big deal anyway.

Thanks for the clarifications and great campaign again!

P.S. Decided to attach tacview file of my successful attempt 04/10/22 for this mission just in case. I also have trackfile, but it's too large to attach here (~90 MB) and most probably will diverge anyway.

Tacview-20230410-182240-DCS-RODF M10.zip.acmi


Edited by lester

Все написанное выше является моим оценочным суждением

Everything written above reflects my personal opinion

 

Занимаюсь "активной пропагандой Американцев на данном форуме" © Flanker

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13 hours ago, baltic_dragon said:

On the first part - so you're saying there is no improvement after the last update? I flew this part of the mission three times to test the fixes and each time it worked as it should for me, so I'd appreciate further feedback.

On the second part - I will have to ask Kevin to refresh my memory, but he based that engagement of a real-life event. Aircraft taking off are sitting ducks and if you are fast enough the AAA should not be a big problem there. I never had problems with this part of the mission when testing and I see  your point, which would be 100% valid if that was something pre-briefed. But let's turn the question around: if you extend and turn back to engage, you don't have AAA but you have 4 Floggers ready to fight you, which puts you at a greater disadvantage. Pure speculation at this point, but a very interesting question!

I had the same issue as other with nothing happening after Sluggo takes out the SA-3.
 

I have the SA-3 locked / hand off as per Sluggo saying take it out if it shoots at him, I stay behind him. He destroys it. Then flies over the airfield, gets shot at  by flak, makes a few turns then silently heads towards the carrier. 
 

Attempted mission twice to ensure that I didn’t do something wrong to cause a trigger to fail/bypass…. 

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6 hours ago, Jshek said:

I had the same issue as other with nothing happening after Sluggo takes out the SA-3.
 

I have the SA-3 locked / hand off as per Sluggo saying take it out if it shoots at him, I stay behind him. He destroys it. Then flies over the airfield, gets shot at  by flak, makes a few turns then silently heads towards the carrier. 
 

Attempted mission twice to ensure that I didn’t do something wrong to cause a trigger to fail/bypass…. 

If memory serves and looking at the tacview file above, it was SA-3 search radar that Sluggo destroyed, I then shot and destroyed SA-3 track radar after Sluggo was engaged. iirc this track radar popped up on my TOO page as 3 very close or even behind S symbol which was boxed initially (so I switched to 3 with RAID button to have it boxed, did hand-off with CAGE/UNCAGE button and sent HARM to this bad guy). Did you see this 3 symbol on your HARM TOO page after Sluggo shot his HARM?


Edited by lester

Все написанное выше является моим оценочным суждением

Everything written above reflects my personal opinion

 

Занимаюсь "активной пропагандой Американцев на данном форуме" © Flanker

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54 minutes ago, lester said:

If memory serves and looking at the tacview file above, it was SA-3 search radar that Sluggo destroyed, I then shot and destroyed SA-3 track radar after Sluggo was engaged. iirc this track radar popped up on my TOO page as 3 very close or even behind S symbol which was boxed initially (so I switched to 3 with RAID button to have it boxed, did hand-off with CAGE/UNCAGE button and sent HARM to this bad guy). Did you see this 3 symbol on your HARM TOO page after Sluggo shot his HARM?

 

After Sluggos HARM hits, the 3 disappears if my memory serves me correct. I had the 3 boxes and handed off to my HARM but Sluggos instructions were to shoot at the SA-3 only if it launches at him which it does not. I guess I can try firing my own HARM at it and see if the mission continues. 

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58 minutes ago, Jshek said:

After Sluggos HARM hits, the 3 disappears if my memory serves me correct. I had the 3 boxes and handed off to my HARM but Sluggos instructions were to shoot at the SA-3 only if it launches at him which it does not. I guess I can try firing my own HARM at it and see if the mission continues. 

Hmm, maybe Sluggo managed to hit/destroy both search and track radars then. I checked tacview recording for my previous attempts for this mission and there were times when Sluggo's HARM hit TR radar too.

Все написанное выше является моим оценочным суждением

Everything written above reflects my personal opinion

 

Занимаюсь "активной пропагандой Американцев на данном форуме" © Flanker

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9 hours ago, lester said:

Hmm, maybe Sluggo managed to hit/destroy both search and track radars then. I checked tacview recording for my previous attempts for this mission and there were times when Sluggo's HARM hit TR radar too.

I’ll try ignoring his orders and shoot at the SA-3 as soon as it comes up on my TOO. See what happens then. 
 

Thank you. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Played this the other day and the SAM did shoot back at Sluggo and the follow up triggers seemed to have worked ( including the launch of the migs from the nearby airbase ), however, I had to quit the mission so I had to come back to it later. Since then, I have been unable to get the triggers to activate. Every subsequent attempt ( 4 now ), the SAM doesnt launch, Sluggo destroys it and then its radio silence as Sluggo just heads back towards the ship. No new triggers or comms happen beyond that point. I keep restarting hoping I can finish this, but it seems to not wanna happen. Does anyone know if I can just return back to mother and the mission will complete despite the remining triggers not activating, or do I need to just skip this mission for the time being? 

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Thanks. I thought I fixed this, but that was before the update and the updated bringing the fix might have bugged something else (sigh). I am not sure if I'll be able to have it sorted for the upcoming OB patch, as I am away from my gaming rig for two weeks and bogged down with amount of work on F-15E, but I'll do my best to have it working.

Though at this stage to be able to cope with all the bug reports after each update I'd need to put together a small task force of beta testers, because it is impossible for me to check all the things being reported & still work on new content. I'll think of something. 

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  • 2 months later...

OK, I did some changes, although everything looks OK in ME and I cannot reproduce any problems with the SA-6 after destroying two SA-3 sites. Also two people who tested this for me couldn't reproduce the problem... but at least I updated LINK-16 in the mission for the next patch. 

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On 7/9/2023 at 5:59 PM, baltic_dragon said:

OK, I did some changes, although everything looks OK in ME and I cannot reproduce any problems with the SA-6 after destroying two SA-3 sites. Also two people who tested this for me couldn't reproduce the problem... but at least I updated LINK-16 in the mission for the next patch. 

Hi BD, maybe stupid question, but what is LINK-16?

Thanks, Flying KENNY 

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  • 4 weeks later...

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