cannot reproduce Engine issues when using MW-50(bug?)

[oncomms]

The engine get cooked after using MW-50. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. As far as I can see I think everything was fine. I'm adding two video. Both videos start with the plane on the ground. On the first one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O13tmPIuF2s&t=1080s at the very first time I started the MW-50 the engine get broken, while on the second one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi8tz01jxs&t=895s while I kept the plane speed in range - I think - for some reason it got hotter and hotter till it broke.

I'm attaching also both tracks.

Thanks for any comments

This is the original thread 

 

WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v4.2.1-20230119-234852.trk WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v4.2.1-20230122-222616.trk

[Hobel]

Am 2.3.2023 um 17:15 schrieb oncomms:

The engine get cooked after using MW-50. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. As far as I can see I think everything was fine. I'm adding two video. Both videos start with the plane on the ground. On the first one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O13tmPIuF2s&t=1080s at the very first time I started the MW-50 the engine get broken, while on the second one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi8tz01jxs&t=895s while I kept the plane speed in range - I think - for some reason it got hotter and hotter till it broke.

I'm attaching also both tracks.

Thanks for any comments

This is the original thread 

 

WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v4.2.1-20230119-234852.trk 22.57 MB · 5 Downloads WOLF_PACK_US_WWII_DYNAMIC_BASE_CAPTURE_v4.2.1-20230122-222616.trk 23.74 MB · 4 Downloads

Can you make new tracks?

[oncomms]

11 hours ago, Hobel said:

Can you make new tracks?

I haven't flown the D9 since the last time. It's very frustrating. When I have  a new one I'll post it

Edited May 24, 2023 by oncomms

[cw4ogden]

18 hours ago, oncomms said:

I haven't flown the D9 since the last time. It's very frustrating. When I have  a new one I'll post it

 

Nothing I see looks like a bug.  I fly the dora routinely, and it is one of the most reliable ww2 engines of the models we have.  

At about 19 minutes or so, when your engine dies, it's pretty much beyond they needle's range of measure hot.  

Did you attempt to maintain engine limitations? Specifically temperatures?  The plane cools well in auto, but sometimes you need to tweak the thermostat a bit, in sustained climb, and  definitely in the power range you are operating in.  I have it mapped but I believe it's a knob under the gunsight.  


I'm Unable to see your cockpit switchology on youtube video, so a few things it could be:
Can't verify you turned on the MW50 circuit breaker and the switch, but assuming you did.  Also in the video, I never see the MW50 needle move.  So maybe  you were in a bird with no mw50?  Going into mw50 with no mw50 onboard, or having it off will cook the engine.

You should see the needle jump when you engage mw50.  It's one of a dozen little things you need to check for, and to me that makes the ww2 genre fun.  
 

[Hobel]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb cw4ogden:

So maybe  you were in a bird with no mw50?  Going into mw50 with no mw50 onboard, or having it off will cook the engine.

That's the thing at the moment, the engine starts with MW50 rather to boil without it runs better
my tests are a while ago, maybe something has changed, but a while ago a fresh engine died with 50MW after 10min which was strange.

 

First of all, I would like to know exactly what are the limits of our D9?
the manual says that the engine can run at 3250RPM 30min

without MW50 this is no problem with the time shortens drastically.

 

 

 

 

[oncomms]

3 hours ago, cw4ogden said:

Nothing I see looks like a bug.  I fly the dora routinely, and it is one of the most reliable ww2 engines of the models we have.  

At about 19 minutes or so, when your engine dies, it's pretty much beyond they needle's range of measure hot.  

Did you attempt to maintain engine limitations? Specifically temperatures?  The plane cools well in auto, but sometimes you need to tweak the thermostat a bit, in sustained climb, and  definitely in the power range you are operating in.  I have it mapped but I believe it's a knob under the gunsight.  


I'm Unable to see your cockpit switchology on youtube video, so a few things it could be:
Can't verify you turned on the MW50 circuit breaker and the switch, but assuming you did.  Also in the video, I never see the MW50 needle move.  So maybe  you were in a bird with no mw50?  Going into mw50 with no mw50 onboard, or having it off will cook the engine.

You should see the needle jump when you engage mw50.  It's one of a dozen little things you need to check for, and to me that makes the ww2 genre fun.  
 

Ohhh! The MW-50 needles moves, pay attention to the video. I was very careful to keep on eye on speed and using MW-50 for short periods of time

On this video at 18:10 you will see the MW needle moving. That is the first time I was using it in that fight. In fact, it's the very first moment when I turned on the MW-50. https://youtu.be/O13tmPIuF2s?t=1087. On the other video I'm using it for short periods of time, and it was as if the plane didn't cool off https://youtu.be/qYi8tz01jxs?t=573 

Those were  hot start plane slots, as you can see at the start of the videos. I attached the track but I don´t know if you can check the circuit breakers there or whatever you need.

 

 

[cw4ogden]

19 hours ago, oncomms said:

Ohhh! The MW-50 needles moves, pay attention to the video. I was very careful to keep on eye on speed and using MW-50 for short periods of time

On this video at 18:10 you will see the MW needle moving. That is the first time I was using it in that fight. In fact, it's the very first moment when I turned on the MW-50. https://youtu.be/O13tmPIuF2s?t=1087. On the other video I'm using it for short periods of time, and it was as if the plane didn't cool off https://youtu.be/qYi8tz01jxs?t=573 

Those were  hot start plane slots, as you can see at the start of the videos. I attached the track but I don´t know if you can check the circuit breakers there or whatever you need.

 

 

Ok I see the MW50 engage at your timestamp.  Your temperatures are at the high end of normal when it engages.  From there, they rapidly exceed the temp limits.  
Regarding the engine time limits, I've read up to 30min with mw50 and 3 for 3250 rpm without mw50, but I have not tested those. 

Either way, those time limits are dependent on keeping the temperatures in the proper ranges.

Meaning 30 min of MW50 might be possible in less demanding situations, but throw in a sustained climb or high power, high AOA, low speed flight, and the 30 minute limit is superseded by the harder and faster temperature limit.   

There's a bit of a hierarchy to these limits:
Time limits are softer limits, if you will.  A 30 minute engine oil temperature limit would be designed to prevent sustained heat damage, reduce wear etc, but it is very very secondary to the  keeping the oil temperature within its range.  Oil temp is a hard limit, it has a gauge and a number, probably because it more important than the  generalized time limitation.

In summary, I think you are treating the 30 minute limitation like it drives the train, when in fact, its the other way around. 
You can get up to 30 minutes - IF you obey the other limits.

Are you adjusting the thermostat or leaving it in the default position? 

Edited May 26, 2023 by cw4ogden
readability

[cw4ogden]

@oncomms

@Hobel

My apologies to you both, I was able to reproduce the bug.  Sorry for being skeptical, but in the video it looks like engine mismanagement. 

My conditions were about 30 minutes into a mission, both temperatures around 100-110C, level flight.  I engaged MW50, needle moves, started a clock figuring I had at least 3 to 10 minutes before anything would start to overheat.  Engine made a sound I've never heard, loss of power followed by and subsequent total seizing of the engine.  I'd guess it occurred within 30 to 40 seconds of what I'd consider "proper" mw50 use.

No useable track file as I was 30 minutes into the mission.   

[oncomms]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:04 AM, cw4ogden said:

@oncomms

@Hobel

My apologies to you both, I was able to reproduce the bug.  Sorry for being skeptical, but in the video it looks like engine mismanagement. 

My conditions were about 30 minutes into a mission, both temperatures around 100-110C, level flight.  I engaged MW50, needle moves, started a clock figuring I had at least 3 to 10 minutes before anything would start to overheat.  Engine made a sound I've never heard, loss of power followed by and subsequent total seizing of the engine.  I'd guess it occurred within 30 to 40 seconds of what I'd consider "proper" mw50 use.

No useable track file as I was 30 minutes into the mission.   

You heard the sound too ... it is on one of the video but hard to notice if you are not looking for it

thanks

[cw4ogden]

4 hours ago, oncomms said:

You heard the sound too ... it is on one of the video but hard to notice if you are not looking for it

thanks

Since then, I've gone out of my way to repeat it and nothing.  Full mw50, emergency engine handle, low speeds high AOA just abusing it and nothing - it just hums right along.  But yes, whatever it was I finally saw it, it had a sound associated with it, and no rhyme or reason why it should have quit.  

Edited May 29, 2023 by cw4ogden

[NineLine]

If this is still an issue, give me a fresh track and I will try it out. 

[grafspee]

On 5/27/2023 at 12:04 PM, cw4ogden said:

@oncomms

@Hobel

My apologies to you both, I was able to reproduce the bug.  Sorry for being skeptical, but in the video it looks like engine mismanagement. 

My conditions were about 30 minutes into a mission, both temperatures around 100-110C, level flight.  I engaged MW50, needle moves, started a clock figuring I had at least 3 to 10 minutes before anything would start to overheat.  Engine made a sound I've never heard, loss of power followed by and subsequent total seizing of the engine.  I'd guess it occurred within 30 to 40 seconds of what I'd consider "proper" mw50 use.

No useable track file as I was 30 minutes into the mission.   

According to DCS manual with mw50 and 3250rpm time limit is 3 min.

30min time limit is for 3250 rpm but w/o mw50

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb grafspee:

According to DCS manual with mw50 and 3250rpm time limit is 3 min.

30min time limit is for 3250 rpm but w/o mw50

yes under normal conditions I could not destroy the engine under 3min with MW5

but after that the probability increases very quickly that something happens to the engine

Which makes me wonder why, even if MW50 provides a little more power, it still overheats so relatively quickly?

This should be the manual for our engine
https://forums.eagle.ru/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=59834

[grafspee]

@Hobel Even above 6k m mw50 increase engine power. Remember that you are running engine at max power so cooling issues may happen depend on situation. What needs to be checked, are cowl flaps wide open when overheat happens. Is automatic system capable to open cawl flaps fully.

Edited November 3, 2023 by grafspee

[cw4ogden]

On 11/3/2023 at 12:18 AM, grafspee said:

According to DCS manual with mw50 and 3250rpm time limit is 3 min.

30min time limit is for 3250 rpm but w/o mw50

If you get to my last sentence it reads: "...I'd guess it occurred within 30 to 40 seconds..."

[NineLine]

3 minutes for T/O or emergency, take off because you are slow and cooling efficiency is less. Emergency as in you are not necessarily prepared or 100% sure the engine is in a state to handle more than 3 minutes of either 3250 or 3250 with MW50. 

30 minutes assumes you are doing this in a position where you are at high speeds already and cooling is not an issue. You are in combat, or need some speed. You are not slow and/or in a climb.

While MW50 may have some cooling effects it is negated by the increased heat from the ignition of the mixture. Using it when you are slow, or when outside temp or engine temps are high are going to risk issues. 

If you see anything outside these recommendations please include a track and I am happy to take a look.

Thanks!

[grafspee]

 

Ofc provided that manual is true, 3 min limit corresponds to emergency power or increased take-off power which will be 3250rpm and MW50 engaged.

3250rpm w/o MW50 will correspond to take off, combat and climb power with 30min limit.

If we look at fuel consumption column it becomes clear that those 3 min and 30 min apply for different engine powers but throttle position is the same so only mw50 on/off is difference. 

I'm just reading DCS's manual exactly as it is.

So i do not agree that 3 min limit apply to 3250 rpm with or with out mw 50, manual states other wise, if manual is wrong than it would be good to correct it.

Edited November 6, 2023 by grafspee

[NineLine]

For "Emergency Power (increased take-off power)" the first entry I believe is without MW-50 and using the "Motorbediengerät" (MBG).

I do not think the MW50 itself at all is limited to 3 minutes, rather you need to monitor your gauges and adjust as needed. MBG will nuke your motor if you leave it on too long. 

[peachmonkey]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

For "Emergency Power (increased take-off power)" the first entry I believe is without MW-50 and using the "Motorbediengerät" (MBG).

doesn't the manual recommend to run MBG at 2700 rpm's max?  Otherwise, the implication of MBG use in the above chart speaks to non-approved type of the engine operation, does it not?

[kablamoman]

The 3 minute limit is an instance of the DCS manual being a bit confused by what was a briefly approved (and subsequently rescinded) operating regime.

 

More details in this post: 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by kablamoman

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb kablamoman:

The 3 minute limit is an instance of the DCS manual being a bit confused by what was a briefly approved (and subsequently rescinded) operating regime.

 

More details in this post: 

 

 

And where do I classify our D9 engine?
because it uses 1.9ATA, SL.

 

 

[saburo_cz]

The "increased take-off power" is name for 1,7ATA (1900hp) engine power setting in German documents - Erhöte Notleistug.

Power with MW is "special emergency power" - Sonder Notleistug or Sonder Notleistug mit Methanol.

 

In the end, the 3 min limit isn't just error in dcs manual, as often.

[grafspee]

1 hour ago, saburo_cz said:

The "increased take-off power" is name for 1,7ATA (1900hp) engine power setting in German documents - Erhöte Notleistug.

Power with MW is "special emergency power" - Sonder Notleistug or Sonder Notleistug mit Methanol.

 

In the end, the 3 min limit isn't just error in dcs manual, as often.

Still looks like error in DCS manual because 1,7ata isn't achieved at full throttle like DCS manual states. And in DCS Dora we can't go 1.7ata since w/o mw50 we get 1.56ata if i not mistaken and 1.9ata with mw50. 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by grafspee

[kablamoman]

7 hours ago, Hobel said:

And where do I classify our D9 engine?
because it uses 1.9ATA, SL.

 

 

I can only say that the only emergency power associated with the notzug handle was the “sonderstartspitze” introduced with the Juno 213A G-1 designation for a couple months at the end of ‘44. It was for take off up to 500 meters.

But because we also clearly have the 1.5/2700 RPM limitation specified in our manual when using the notzug handle, it would seem that our engine is from after this designation was rescinded and so should not be used. As saburo mentioned, the 3 minute limit seems to be another conflation regarding “Erhöte Notleistug” that wasn’t installed (we have no switch for it in our aircraft) in aircraft equipped with MW50.

[saburo_cz]

1.9ATA / 3250RPM does not seem to be correct for power with methanol.

 

It should be 1.8ATA at low gear.

Edited November 7, 2023 by saburo_cz