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LOMAC v1.1 copy protection – good news/bad news


Bogun

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I really do wish that Eagle Dynamics responds to this thread. I would clarify much of what has to be, in the open, for all of us, users....

 

What time is it in Moscow right now? Are they in bed?

 

Moscow, Russia

Moscow is also known as Moskva

Moscow is the capital of Russia

The native name of Russia is Rossiya

Current time Thursday, February 24, 2005 at 4:53:31 AM

UTC/GMT Offset

Standard time zone: UTC/GMT +3 hours

No daylight saving time at the moment

Daylight Saving Time DST starts on Sunday, March 27, 2005 at 2:00 AM local standard time

DST ends on Sunday, October 30, 2005 at 3:00 AM local daylight time

Sun Sunrise at 7:33 AM

Sunset at 5:53 PM

Find sunrise and sunset-times for other dates

Dialing codes dialing codes International country code: + 7 (Russia)

Area code: 095

See how to dial to Moscow

Coordinates

Latitude: 55° 45' North

Longitude: 37° 37' East

 

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166

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This is all really weird . . .

 

I guess I don't care about the 3x activation thing. I will just be more careful installing new upgrades. If I do my planned upgrade soon and it will be past my third time, then I will just re-buy the code (reluctantly).

 

What concerns me most is the virus threat, if these rumors are true. I installed the 1.1 demo (with the imbedded Starforce) last weekend and since have had my antivirus pick up a trojan dialer. Of course, this could be total coincidence but it still frightens me nonetheless.

 

I hope this all turns out ok in some way because I REALLY want to buy 1.1 and I think ED deserves to get paid well for their work in our genre.

 

 

Yeah that's pretty much the way I see it VapoR, but I have had a recurring problem with the 1.1 demo, sometimes when I start the demo it goes to the start up screen graphic of the 'T', then my computer freezes completely and I can't do anything, I can't ALT-TAB, I can't Ctr-Alt-Del, nothing, so I have to reset the PC. Never had that happen before, and it kept happening when I started 1.1, on Tuesday it happened once again, PC is completely frozen on the 1.1 start screen, but this time I looked over and noticed that my ADSL modem lights were blinking furiously but I knew there were no internet programs open ... so I unplugged it (suspecting a security issue) and guess what? My PC instantly unfroze and 1.1 started up.

 

Now I don't know what happened there, but I'm certainly concern about that, because my net connection was open and furiously sending data and I wasn't controlling it ... and that has never occurred to me before, and I have quite a bit of up-to-date PC security on this system. So now I read about this Starforce issue with the demo ... hmmm … it is disconcerting.

 

If I hadn’t experienced these uncontrolled internet traffic related PC take-overs when 1.1 demo starts I would probably not be concerned much about Starforce, but after this … I dunno.

 

My system security programs report it as clean and secure, but what the hell was my modem doing when the PC was freezing up starting 1.1? ...

 

Admittedly, I have heavily modified the demo with 1.02 components, so is this the Starforce responding to that? ... has anyone else had this freeze up occur as 1.1 boots? I would like to know if this is a common occurrence and why it is happening.

 

--

 

EDIT : I used that Starforce Driver removal tool discussed on the previous pages and it did its thing then asked to roboot the PC, after reboot the 1.1 demo still worked. No freeze up.

 

EDIT #2 : ahh, I see it reinstalls itself ... cute.

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Copy Protection is useless!

 

This is childish comment. Please do not waste our time and space on this forum!

 

legal customers must be recompense with eg. a printed Manual or so,

 

Ohhh, give me a brake! What else do you want from ED? Free Thrustmaster Cougar?

 

I dont buy copy protectet CD`s. I Only did once, and than no more.

 

This tells it all!

 

Please ED, dont punish the customers! Reward them!

 

Please ED, disregard silly and childish comments and focus on your next project!

Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit

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ok, emotions boom are hopefully gone.

 

How long will it take for Anti-Virus software companies to recognize StarForce as a “backdoor” and start removing it like any other malicious software, will LOCON still work? It will not, and ED will be besieged by the angry users asking for what? Fixes? Refunds?

SF isn't a thing invented yesterday. It is already on the market for last two years. One of the biggest russian publishers, 1C company, used it for almost all their games. It was also used on many western games from various publishers. At this time, there is no antivirus who threat SF as a malware. And for all these years, many gamers in russia have it installed on their PC - and we don't see any SF epidemy or something so far.

 

Basically, SF isn't more "malware" as Windows itself is. It's a problem of right terms. I prefer to use "backdoor" term or malware when it open a network port to allow remote access by network. With this meaning of "backdoor" term, SF is not a "backdoor", since it don't open a network port, and it is not allow a remote access.

 

But those, who called SF's vulnerability as a "backdoor", used it in this way - http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/back-door.html

We can call MS Windows as a "backdoor" by this definition :)

 

We, on the West are getting “StarForce ProActive 1.1” which may not contain the backdoor.

I regret to say, but I must - my experiments with "StarForce ProActive 1.1" version December 2004 shows, that exploit works with it in the same way as with "Starforce 3.x Pro" version.

 

Moose, they've shown that a version of Starcrap does open back doors in the OS.

I hope that you are understand, that this is not a kind of "backdoor", that "BackOrifice" opens or similar.

Again, SF don't allow any malicious network access. basically, it don't have anything with network access.

 

As 169th_Moose is already stated, you can check it with "netstat -an" - you wont see any new ports with SF or without.

 

The point here is, 1.2 is coming out after 1.1. I would imagine most peopel will get 1.2, and won't really have use for 1.1 - IF it turns out that there's some negative feedback with SF, they will likely use something else for 1.2, and at the same time make SURE we can play it for a good while since they've got the other project to work on which will take time.

 

I doubt anyone will use up their 3 activations (NOT INSTALLS - ACTIVATIONS. YOU CAN REINSTALL TILL YOU'RE BLUE IN THE FACE) before 1.2 comes out.

That is a good point, I agree.

Guys, are you going to live forever? (with FC 1.1) :D

 

I'm not a SF-fan, but I have a lot of games using this protection scheme, and I don't have a problems with them.

"There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: recklessness, which leads to destruction; cowardice, which leads to capture; a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." Sun Tzu

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Guest ruggbutt
Have fun with 1.02 :roll:.

 

I was being sarcastic there, Nomad. :D All these guys getting excited is pretty funny to me.

 

And you not understanding exactly what the problem is w/the "copy protection" makes me laugh. Uninformed. Our concerns are very real. Deal with it.

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Guest ruggbutt
concerns, huh? Many people really dont have a clue what they r concerning about :D. Nono, it *is* true.

I have a problem w/installing something on my computer w/out my knowledge. That goes for Spyware, Trojans, Viruses and yes, Drivers.

 

So that's my concern and your ignorance nor apathy can change that.

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well... just my 2 cents here, ok?

 

i will investigate Starforce better and wait for an official ED statement before i make my mind.

 

no, i don´t like having had Starforce installed in my system with the demo without my knowledge.

 

i´m not particularly worried about open doors, etc. but i am disgusted that a (possible) data collection program IS on my system. i don´t know what it collects and how that information is sent or not to whom. i use my computer a lot for netbanking so i AM worried.

 

another question for multiple system users... i have 3 systems right now, will i be able to use FC on them without exhausting the 3 Activation/whatever keys?

 

i know that MS uses "similar" systems, but the comparison is really a bit extreme, besides i have a corporate version of windows that does not need activation (before anyone starts asking - i only have it because i am allowed to install at home any software my company uses, it´s a MS licensing benefit on their top licensing programs.) so even though i reformat and upgrade a lot, i don´t have problems in windows. am i going to have problems in FC? that´s what i want to know.

 

another thing and this MAY be pure coincidence:

 

i´ve started to have spyware on my computer since i installed FC demo. now, before anyone starts saying that it IS a coincidence, let me clarify a few points...

 

i have Norton installed and up to date. Firewall activated and i run Spybot regularly.

never had spyware.

a couple of days ago i checked again and had two entries that i removed.

 

i have checked again now and i have 18 entries. makes me wonder. just that.

 

i am going to uninstall FC demo and clear Starforce out of my system and i am going to see if i keep getting entries. if i do, then it WAS a coincidence and FC has nothing to do with it.

 

another thing that makes me wonder is...

 

it may come the day where starforce and/or ED go out of business... what will happen then? it may not happen, but business logics tells me that it is a strong possibility. more in starforce case than ED maybe, i don´t know, because what is a profitable business today protecting software may not be profitable tomorrow with new software distribution technices. but when (and if that) happens what will happen to my copy of FC?

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another question for multiple system users... i have 3 systems right now, will i be able to use FC on them without exhausting the 3 Activation/whatever keys?

Accoding to most licenses, you have a right to install one purshased copy of game on one PC only. And yes, if you will buy 1 add-on you'll violate lincense and you will need to spend your 3 activation on your 3 PCs.

 

i´m not particularly worried about open doors, etc. but i am disgusted that a (possible) data collection program IS on my system. i don´t know what it collects and how that information is sent or not to whom. i use my computer a lot for netbanking so i AM worried.

...

 

another thing and this MAY be pure coincidence:

 

i´ve started to have spyware on my computer since i installed FC demo. now, before anyone starts saying that it IS a coincidence, let me clarify a few points...

 

i have Norton installed and up to date. Firewall activated and i run Spybot regularly.

never had spyware.

a couple of days ago i checked again and had two entries that i removed.

 

i have checked again now and i have 18 entries. makes me wonder. just that.

 

i am going to uninstall FC demo and clear Starforce out of my system and i am going to see if i keep getting entries. if i do, then it WAS a coincidence and FC has nothing to do with it.

Very funny, actually :) I always have a good laugh, when I see how people concern about their privacy and security in internet without any basic knowledge of what they are worry for. It's funny when people catch few IE cookies, and immediatly re-format and re-install PC, just because some useless "spyware search programs" called those cookies as a "spyware" :D

Believe me, SF has nothing with your "new spyware" findings. Just try to not visit "18-years-only" sites and install a good firewall :)

And if you don't believe me, then read or ask other experts, a good system\networks programmers prefferable.

 

Nothing personal, AnzacPT. Please don't take it as offence.

"There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: recklessness, which leads to destruction; cowardice, which leads to capture; a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." Sun Tzu

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Wow. Don't you just hate it to be absent from the computer for half a day, only to return and find something like this :?

 

So where to begin...

 

A lot of hysteria here. I'm part of internet communities long enough so it doesn't really surprise me, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Please people, read! How we can go from "after the third major hardware change a new key is needed" to "you need to buy it again after installing it three times" is still funny in a way... if you're in the mood for this at least.

 

The same goes for reports about system intrusions that are caused by this "backdoor", the exact degree of which is still not clear at all (my somewhat short research indicated it is not related to internet connections anyway?). Nope, some cookies reported by Ad-Aware are no proof of a security leak (not directed at anyone specific here mind you, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's talking about, but at the same time I know from personal experience how much these topics about security/spyware/trojans/viruses etc. usually get confused).

 

Now the issue with Starforce being installed with the demo. That is indeed a bad thing, I doubt anyone wants to argue about that. Now, crap happens every day that shouldn't. This isn't as unusual with game demos either unfortunately, or other software (still remembering how CFS3 screwed up my system with the included DirectX9 beta version that also installed without asking me). Of course that doesn't make it any better. And the fact that SF apparently leaves a driver in the system instead of the normal registry or .dll garbage (which is already bad enough) makes me wonder about the overall setup of that system.

 

So let's get to the real point now, the copy protection for Lock On: Flaming Cliffs download version for the international market. Before Half-Life 2, my take on copy protection was pretty simple: not worth a penny, those systems never had any real impact on piracy protection, and often a very big impact on honest customers. Apparently, Steam was different here because it did at least prevent piracy long enough to increase sales. However this was somewhat special because more or less everyone wanted Half Life 2 as soon as possible. I have my doubts the same would have worked for a less hyped product. Will something similar work for FC? I have my doubts. If only by looking here.

 

Let's face it, people who are still with Lock On are what I'd consider loyal fans, even more so those who plan to buy FC. Reasonable or not, but I see a lot of those fans being p'ed off at the moment, and I do not like that. Even if most the fears about what Starforce will require you to do or what problems it will cause are certainly overblown in my view, the result is still very real.

 

Now I could be very wrong about the loyalty part... we all like to believe our sim communities are better and more loyal than the usual shooter of RTS people, and less prone to piracy. Perhaps that's just make-believe, and the Flanker2 sales vs. Flanker2.5 downloads could be quite revealing. Perhaps some of the people who claim to have bought Lock On two times are in fact only waiting for FC to be available on some server that doesn't belong to ED... I still don't think so, but let's be honest, we all don't really know.

 

Still, I am convinced that we here are the people that the download addon is primarily targeted at. Even if many fears about Starforce may be overblown, even if some people that claim to not buy the addon have posted in anger and will reconsider in the end, apparently a lot of even the most loyal people are not happy at the moment. Which is especially sad because the demo was so well received by the very same people during the last week and has caused a lot of good spirit - most of that is currently washed away I'm afraid :cry:

 

As I said, I have no clue how reasonable the inclusion of this copy protection is for FC, and how much it will increase sales by preventing piracy... but quite obviously it is not very good for this community at the moment. I hope this is taken into account when the respective decisions are made. That's all I'll say at the moment, along with the hope that some people will calm down their rhetorics a bit.

Caretaker

 

ED Beta Test Team

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And you not understanding exactly what the problem is w/the "copy protection" makes me laugh. Uninformed. Our concerns are very real. Deal with it.

 

So the fact that I'm not being girly about it means I'm uninformed? :lol:

 

I'm not saying all these concerns aren't real. In fact, I'm full aware that one of these days, a huge space rock will probably hit earth, but I ain't gonna let that stop me from having fun.

 

I'm dealing with it. I'm getting FC unless ED purposely stick a virus the DL. But you all go ahead and cry wolf...

ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P

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Did some digging to find out what StarForce ProActive 1.1 is, and isn't. It apparently is a very sound anti-pirating method, and crackers are unlikely to get around this one easily any time soon (though I'm sure they'll try). The latest update will be even tougher to crack then it already was and I'll be surprised if this is not the version FC comes with ... read below.

 

--

 

http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?category=10&type=1&id=673

Events

 

StarForce releases an updated version of its protection

07.02.2005

 

With the release of an updated version of its protection, StarForce has won another victory over pirates, providing calm for publishers of licensed software.

 

The new version of StarForce features the “NewATAPI” technology, which, when used together with the previously announced “ISO-protection” technology, prevents bypassing the protection algorithms using IDE-interface blocking. This approach is often utilized by malicious users trying to launch the application from an illegal copy or an image of the licensed disc, using various utilities provided by crackers.

 

The updated version of StarForce withstands the latest cracking tools, such as the "StarForce Nightmare" utility.The new protection version was made available to StarForce’s clients on February 2, 2005. All customers get the update for free.

 

--

 

http://www.brothersoft.com/Utilities_Word_Processors_StarForce_ProActive_SN100_28744.html

 

Licensing and protection solution including 100 release and ten test licenses to protect a software product. The Client is free to customize the given amount of licenses according to his preferences and the product target audience requirements. Save revenue loss by protecting your software product from illegal distribution and use.

 

The StarForce ProActive SN100 suit allows to apply the licensing system and protect one software product developed to run under MS Windows 98/ME/NT4.0/2000/XP.

 

StarForce ProActive Features

 

Protected products can be delivered to end users via any software distribution channels (CD/DVD-ROM and CD-R discs, electronic delivery).

 

The software product is locked to hardware parameters of the end user's computer and cannot be started till the license is activated.

 

Different product activation modes, including automatic activation and manual activation by e-mail or phone.

 

Product licensing modules include promotional licenses (try&buy, try&die, demo, etc.), enhanced security licenses (Terminal Server Lock feature, sophisticated PC binding schemes), and corporate licenses including various types of site licenses and subscriptions.

 

Selective regions blocking to prohibit activations from unwanted locations.

 

License black-listing to prevent stolen licenses activation.

 

All communications with StarForce activation server are performed via the secure SSL protocol, ensuring that no eavesdropping, tampering, or message forgery may take place.

 

Open architecture of the activation server to provide easy integration with online billing systems and publisher's web site. Such an approach allows the publisher to avoid generating batches of licenses in advance and instead to automatically generate individual licenses on demand directly from the publisher's web site or an online store.

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I'm dealing with it. I'm getting FC unless ED purposely stick a virus the DL. But you all go ahead and cry wolf...

 

Good for you leafer!

It's good for ED to have such loyal customers like yourself.

 

The problem is:

- this strict copy protection WILL drive away some customers (count me as one)

- it's penalizing PAYING customers

- it's cost money

- it WON'T stop the emergence of cracked or hacked version

 

In my opinion it bad thing for both ED and its customers.

I'll say it again: I will NOT support strict copy protection (like activation schemes).

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So, whats the difference in activating some bad antivirus prog like Nortin AV and a StarForce key? Or is your Norton AV also cracked? Those who change their hardware seriously every month have enough money to buy FC more times :wink:

Latest McAffee antivir uses ActiveX elements for the gui, so far about security ;)

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Holy crap!

 

This thread is ridiculous. Give up the consiparcy theories and let ED distribute it the way they see fit. They have to protect their hard work somehow.

 

Then if your still not happy with the product and protection system, you can leave the community and stay off the forum.

 

It's just a darn game and ya know ya want it!

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Holy crap!

 

This thread is ridiculous. Give up the consiparcy theories and let ED distribute it the way they see fit. They have to protect their hard work somehow.

 

So you're basically saying that if they bundled the game with all known viruses known to mankind, we should still download and install it? ;)

 

Then if your still not happy with the product and protection system, you can leave the community and stay off the forum.

 

Okay. So basically anyone who doesn't agree with YOU should promptly leave and never say a word again. Hmm.. okay.. but if you really dislike the company of others that much, why don't YOU leave and let the rest of us keep talking to each other ;)

 

It's just a darn game and ya know ya want it!

 

Yes, it's just a darn game, and that is precisely the context you should view this in. If I am concerned about potential security issues I might introduce into my system, then the fact that "it's just a darn game" will definitely affect my decision on how to move forward.. and probably not in a favourable direction for THIS particular product.. if you catch my drift.

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This it incredible.

 

For a 35 USD addon (that I have been looking forward to for so long) going through this, yes, insult ?

I bought 2 copies of LockOn (LAN play) at the time - full price.

Don't mind the money at all.

Even if ED would charge 500 USD I would have bought it (but sure not this).

Now, even if ED gives it for free, but with this copy protection/driver, I won't even consider installing it.

ED, great, you accomplish 1 thing: now you don't have to be afraid of people 'stealing' your intellectual property at all, cause very few people will ever want to even install this.

My advice: ask 5 times what you thought of asking, but no copy protection like this !

I WOULD buy it, I assure you.

That way you will ALSO be able to get your money, even with the pityfull LO stealing crowd out there (of what, the 1% thieves ??).

That way, you will still gain 399%.

But I am afraid... back to LO 1.02 and F4.

:wink:

LockON is IT !

AMD 3500+ - GF6800GT - 1GB RAM low tatency - MSI NEO2 PLatinum

20" BENQ S-IPS TFT 1600X1200 - 32 bit color

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Its sad to hear that lomac 1.1 uses Starforce. For me it means I wont be buying it, although I have been anxiously waiting for it to be released until now. The main reasons for this is that I dont want such "drivers" in my system, games are user space applications and have absolute no business to kernel space. I dont want such things running on my system when I'm not playing the game. Secondly, I'm very worried about how long the game will actually work; As it requires the starforce driver, which needs to be specifically written for each operating system, there's no guarantee that updated versions of the driver will be available after 5 or 10 years when we'll be running OS's that are not available now.

 

If some of you do not have a problem with staforce, good, buy the game and support ED, they deserve it. I'd want the game too, but I dont want Starforce so my only choice is to just forget about it. It's just a game after all.

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another way.

 

I feel exactly the same about it as Hodgepodge.

Wanted to add...

WE are the SIM community.

Not your ordinary: "steal me a copy of this" crowd.

Very few of us (if any) were even thinking about stealing your master piece game. WE are to proud for that.

I can come up with technical reasons why I don't want that driver stuff on my system, but the main reason is: you don't trust us, I think many of us have just lost trust.

It is indeed about money.

But we are not to blame for the UBISOFT problem either.

I know many companies will resort to this kind of anti-theft scheme and it is understandeable.

But is hopy ED realizes our astonishment is understandeable too.

I have bought software that requires activation before (not only Windows).

But this is 'pushing the envelope'.

Good luck with FC sales.

:?:

LockON is IT !

AMD 3500+ - GF6800GT - 1GB RAM low tatency - MSI NEO2 PLatinum

20" BENQ S-IPS TFT 1600X1200 - 32 bit color

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