opinion of a real Hind pilot anywhere ?

[Deimos]

Hi,

i watched reactions of real F14/16/18  or Huey pilots to DCS and found it really interesting and entertaining.

Is there somewhere one with a Hip or Hind pilot ? 

[kotor633]

Hi,
Yes, that would actually be interesting!

[admiki]

I'll try and get hold of some of Serbian Hind pilots this year.

Anything in particular you guys would like to know?

[Stratos]

58 minutes ago, admiki said:

Anything in particular you guys would like to know?

Yes, they take off, fly and land with the three AP channels ON?

[WarbossPetross]

59 минут назад, admiki сказал:

I'll try and get hold of some of Serbian Hind pilots this year.

Anything in particular you guys would like to know?

How do they even land from the hover? I can land, like, 20% of the time, otherwise I fall down into the vortex. The Hip gives clear feedback when approaching the VRS state by shaking all around, and so does the Huey. The Hind gives no feedback whatsoever, one moment it floats ahead like a flying Cadillac and then it just drops like a sack of hammers with no in-between state that I can notice. Other helis appear to be too cool to care about VRS at all.

[admiki]

33 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Yes, they take off, fly and land with the three AP channels ON?

I have spoken to Hind pilot, answer is yes

25 minutes ago, WarbossPetross said:

How do they even land from the hover? I can land, like, 20% of the time, otherwise I fall down into the vortex. The Hip gives clear feedback when approaching the VRS state by shaking all around, and so does the Huey. The Hind gives no feedback whatsoever, one moment it floats ahead like a flying Cadillac and then it just drops like a sack of hammers with no in-between state that I can notice. Other helis appear to be too cool to care about VRS at all.

You need to be pro-active, not reactive. There is a tinny bit of shudder coming down through ETL, but not as much as with Hip, so you need to pay attention to airspeed and start adding collective before you start sinking.

[Stratos]

1 minute ago, admiki said:

I have spoken to Hind pilot, answer is yes.

Interesting, cause with YAW on the beast is completely unflyable for me.

 

[admiki]

32 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Interesting, cause with YAW on the beast is completely unflyable for me.

 

Why? Because of heading hold?

[Stratos]

yup, I have no problems flying it with YAW AP off tough, so thats why I asked. 

Serbia flys the Mi35 with flexible gun. Can you please ask how they coordinate the attacks with the gun?

- Do the gunner attacks the targets by their own? selecting the target and engaging at will or he tolds the pilot whats he aiming for and pilot gives authorization? (as our Petrovich does now with the Shturms).

Edited March 24, 2023 by Stratos

[admiki]

30 minutes ago, Stratos said:

yup, I have no problems flying it with YAW AP off tough, so thats why I asked. 

Serbia flys the Mi35 with flexible gun. Can you please ask how they coordinate the attacks with the gun?

- Do the gunner attacks the targets by their own? selecting the target and engaging at will or he tolds the pilot whats he aiming for and pilot gives authorization? (as our Petrovich does now with the Shturms).

 

You need to have microswitches activated (which is done by pilot's feet on pedals, but we can discuss this outside of this thread to not spam it).

I can ask, but not sure how much tactical data they will be willing to give (and this won't be done any time soon, this is long-ish term project, they won't be happy to talk to some guy off the street)

[Stratos]

23 minutes ago, admiki said:

I can ask, but not sure how much tactical data they will be willing to give (and this won't be done any time soon, this is long-ish term project, they won't be happy to talk to some guy off the street)

Well not sure how tactical that part is, but no problem If they do not want to answer.

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, Stratos said:

yup, I have no problems flying it with YAW AP off tough, so thats why I asked. 

Serbia flys the Mi35 with flexible gun. Can you please ask how they coordinate the attacks with the gun?

- Do the gunner attacks the targets by their own? selecting the target and engaging at will or he tolds the pilot whats he aiming for and pilot gives authorization? (as our Petrovich does now with the Shturms).

 

The manual states that all three autopilot modes must be on before takeoff, only exception being allowed for training. 
 

As Miki said, there are switches in the pedal that detect foot pressure. They turn off heading hold and turn yaw AP into a dampener. This can make some flying and aiming smoother. 

When feet are released, heading hold is engaged. If heading changes more then 9 degrees, then the heading hold will auto trim your pedals to maintain heading. This is probably what’s messing you up 

Alai as Miki said, you need to either 

A. Fly with yaw AP off however unrealistic, dampening mode is barely noticeable in cruise anyway 

B. Bind the MicroSwitch button, and bind it to a switch or the off postion of a button. That way you can keep it in dampening mode and turn it to heading hold mode as you wish 

@molevitch put together some real life Mi-8 pedals and wired them to the sim. He said that in order to release the switches you have to very deliberately lift your foot from the pedal or use only the tip of your heel on the bottom. 
 

You can read Section 5 of my autopilot guide if you want more information 

 

 

[Deimos]

Would like to know if they also trained firing their missiles from hover behind cover (trees for example).

Because in DCS i often take hover/cover position as far away as possible and pling one target after another through the gaps between the trees or buildings. 

i

 

 

[deloy]

Guys you have to understand that autopilot in helicopters works differently than fixed wing.  Its not like fixed wing aircraft where you use it when you need to.  All helicopters (at least those I know which are equipped with such systems) always fly with all channels on, including heading hold functions which are usually tied in with the whole system.  Hind (havent flown hind in real life but have friends who have flown similar Russian systems) has yaw dampening system which helps in real life to limit the rate of pedal input which can result in dangerous flight regimes.  It is difficult to feel in simulation due hardware limitations, where ED has modelled delay in input to simulate it.

The only time pilots switch these systems off are for training or currency.  I always fly using real world techniques (all functions on) and adapt my flying to it, however, there are cases where you have to adapt in sim.  

Also, please note that microswitch system in pedal is used in other helicopters too, its not peculiar to Hind.

Cheers

 

[kotor633]

I handle the Mi-24 here parallel to the Mi-8 and what is written in the Mi-8 manual, page 221, chapter 7.11.5:
The autopilot system is engaged for all normal flight operations.
The pitch and roll channel is normally engaged throughout the flight from takeoff to landing. Yaw and altitude channels are used rarely.
When performing vertical takeoff, one must enable “ROLL-PITCH” channel (pilots, operating Mi-8 in Russian Federation, normally do not engage “YAW” channel before takeoff).
When performing rolling takeoff, engage only “ROLL-PITCH” channel. Engaging must be monitored with help of lamp-buttons, which should be green for engaged channels.
Landing approach, braking, and landing are normally performed with the autopilot channels “ROLL” and “PITCH” engaged.

Yaw is only on for me when I fly bluntly from point x to y. In addition, Automatic MicroSwitch Off, Pedals Micro Switch Button (Y) and the spring on my MFG Crosswind pedal are unhooked and I can fly the Mi-24 very precisely.

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, kotor633 said:

I handle the Mi-24 here parallel to the Mi-8 and what is written in the Mi-8 manual, page 221, chapter 7.11.5:
The autopilot system is engaged for all normal flight operations.
The pitch and roll channel is normally engaged throughout the flight from takeoff to landing. Yaw and altitude channels are used rarely.
When performing vertical takeoff, one must enable “ROLL-PITCH” channel (pilots, operating Mi-8 in Russian Federation, normally do not engage “YAW” channel before takeoff).
When performing rolling takeoff, engage only “ROLL-PITCH” channel. Engaging must be monitored with help of lamp-buttons, which should be green for engaged channels.
Landing approach, braking, and landing are normally performed with the autopilot channels “ROLL” and “PITCH” engaged.

Yaw is only on for me when I fly bluntly from point x to y. In addition, Automatic MicroSwitch Off, Pedals Micro Switch Button (Y) and the spring on my MFG Crosswind pedal are unhooked and I can fly the Mi-24 very precisely.

Surprised you don’t fly with yaw channel in and MicroSwitch together, MicroSwitch doesn’t do anything without yaw channel on. 
 

Mi-24P pre hover 

“2.3.3. Príor to hovering, it is necessary……….
- make sure that the autopilot is activated over the channels Roll, Pitch and Yaw and, if necessary, set the movable indices of these channels
to the neutral position”

2.1.1 “* For the training purposes, flights with switched off autopilot are allowed;”

Cold War Musuem manual “2-35 VUAP-1 Autopilot System
The autopilot system is designed to stabilize control of the helicopter while taxiing, during takeoff, while hovering, in flight, and during landing. Under normal operating conditions, the yaw, pitch, and roll channels are engaged before beginning to taxi and remain engaged throughout the flight and landing. ”

It is different then Mi-8 becuase of the extra mode in the yaw autopilot. In Mi-8, if microswitches pressed (represented in DCS as pedal movement more then 9%) then Yaw AP does nothing. If microswitches released (in DCS as pedal within 9% of center), then Yaw channel does heading hold with auto trim. 
 

But with Mi-24, you have an additional dampening mode that turns on when microswitches are pressed, that fights change in rate of movement. That means that while it may only be good for heading hold in Mi-8, it is more useful then for just straight and level flight in Mi-24. In addition you have the complexities of being able to turn off pedal damper, but it doesn’t seem that’s modeled in game except as a temporary yaw channel turn off. In DCS, you can turn on yaw AP after turning pedal damper off and still have same functions. Just not with so greatly limited pedal movement speed. 

In real life I believe turning off pedal damper should disable heading hold, and force dampening mode of autopilot to replace the physical hydraulic dampener in the pedal (that is disabled by the red guarded switch, and whose function is to limit forces on tailboom.)

Its likely also there to fight dutch roll, both the physical pedal hydraulic dampener and the autopilot yaw dampener. This seems to actually be modeled in DCS quite well. Turning them all off really causes some more oscillations and gyrations once you’re heavy with the controls 

[admiki]

3 hours ago, kotor633 said:

I handle the Mi-24 here parallel to the Mi-8 and what is written in the Mi-8 manual, page 221, chapter 7.11.5:
The autopilot system is engaged for all normal flight operations.
The pitch and roll channel is normally engaged throughout the flight from takeoff to landing. Yaw and altitude channels are used rarely.
When performing vertical takeoff, one must enable “ROLL-PITCH” channel (pilots, operating Mi-8 in Russian Federation, normally do not engage “YAW” channel before takeoff).
When performing rolling takeoff, engage only “ROLL-PITCH” channel. Engaging must be monitored with help of lamp-buttons, which should be green for engaged channels.
Landing approach, braking, and landing are normally performed with the autopilot channels “ROLL” and “PITCH” engaged.

Yaw is only on for me when I fly bluntly from point x to y. In addition, Automatic MicroSwitch Off, Pedals Micro Switch Button (Y) and the spring on my MFG Crosswind pedal are unhooked and I can fly the Mi-24 very precisely.

Mi-8 and Mi-24 are similar, but not the same. 

Same goes for their systems. 24 manual states that ALL 3 channels should be active. Whether you want to fly it like that or not is up to you.

[Dagger52]

I just noticed something strange today. I did not flew the Hind for a couple of month now and I just noticed a strange behavior in YAW.

When im faster then 150kph I'm not able to add any left rudder even with my paddle full pushed I get zero rudder in the helo.

I checked my input and the setting in addition to that there is no issue when howering for example. And it does nothing when I turn of the stabelizer.

Anyone else noticed that?

[admiki]

6 hours ago, Dagger52 said:

I just noticed something strange today. I did not flew the Hind for a couple of month now and I just noticed a strange behavior in YAW.

When im faster then 150kph I'm not able to add any left rudder even with my paddle full pushed I get zero rudder in the helo.

I checked my input and the setting in addition to that there is no issue when howering for example. And it does nothing when I turn of the stabelizer.

Anyone else noticed that?

Your heading hold is activated.

Disable either yaw channel AP or heading hold mode and press trim reset.

[Dagger52]

I had the heading hold disabled and I did a litle testrun, the trimmer reset solved the problem thank you

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Dagger52 said:

I had the heading hold disabled and I did a litle testrun, the trimmer reset solved the problem thank you

In the future if you want to fly with yaw AP, learn and use MicroSwitch function. I have a section for it here in my autopilot guide, but there are also many threads on it. Section B discusses Yaw channel https://forum.dcs.world/topic/294627-personal-mi-24p-autopilot-and-weapons-guides/

Edited April 11, 2023 by AeriaGloria