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F-14A/B Flight Model Tuning - Guided Discussion


IronMike

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10 minutes ago, eatthis said:

is the f18 overmodelled? i get the impression it has too much drag and too much power??

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/130-dcs-fa-18c-hornet/

But I suggest to be prepared with something more than "impression".

Also from the Hornet roadmap:

Update flight model for ground effect, takeoff pitch effects, auto-pilot based on FPM, touch and go handling, and other remaining flight model issues [In Progress]


Edited by draconus

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also remember that the Hornet we have was only for the Marines and Foreign customers.  AFAIK the Navy never got any (or at least not many) of the -402 powered Hornets so EVERY story of AF training with Navy and the Navy Hornet being slow and underpowered is NOT the model of Hornet we have in DCS.  

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If you guys read the rather large update we posted, you would have noticed a link I included at the bottom: https://dcs.silver.ru/Diagram/F14B

Remember this is not a HB affiliated website, just something a DCS user made that I find interesting. There are other aircraft on the webpage and the last tested DCS version is somewhat older, but do what you want with this information. There appear to be some discrepancies in certain aircraft. Admittedly, the F-14 was one of them until I could fine tune it. The difference between being way off the numbers and really close can be miniscule at times. It would be unrealistic to expect every DCS aircraft to be perfect across the whole envelope. Tuning any flight model requires a great deal of knowledge and experience, as well as immense amounts of time. If the testing methodology is sound, everyone could answer their own questions with hard numbers.


Edited by fat creason
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Oh I know @Spurts, no worries! I was just trying to say the answer to the question "is the <insert here> overmodelled?" is most likely: Yes, but just as likely to be "undermodeled" too. Modules that have the whole envelope perfectly tuned are probably in a minority, but I haven't tested every module to confirm that.


Edited by fat creason
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Oh for sure!  Just got done flying the Tomcat for the first time since MT dropped.  That wing rock is wild but easy enough to manage.  I was testing reversals while in the energy bucket (my term for min speed, max AoA, low altitude) and once I did a reversal via cross control stall the wing rock was strong and relentless.  I had to lower AoA to kill it then resume my hard pull.

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On 4/22/2023 at 12:33 AM, maxsin72 said:

I have done my tests at 0° celsius and F14 performs a bit better giving me the chance to out turn the F18, the behavior is different from that at 20°C, at 20°C the F18 is still almost unbeatable, so no placebo my friend 🙂

Ah, that explains it. I usually do all the tests in standard atmosphere conditions. 

On 4/26/2023 at 1:11 PM, Spurts said:

also remember that the Hornet we have was only for the Marines and Foreign customers.  AFAIK the Navy never got any (or at least not many) of the -402 powered Hornets so EVERY story of AF training with Navy and the Navy Hornet being slow and underpowered is NOT the model of Hornet we have in DCS.  

Eh... that fuel consumption (still no reply on that topic, hopefully after the FM revamp?) is still rather fishy and some of the envelope edge cases are questionable. But just based on raw performance, it's probably ok-ish.  But Draconus is right, this is not the place to discuss it. 

22 hours ago, Spurts said:

Oh for sure!  Just got done flying the Tomcat for the first time since MT dropped.  That wing rock is wild but easy enough to manage.  I was testing reversals while in the energy bucket (my term for min speed, max AoA, low altitude) and once I did a reversal via cross control stall the wing rock was strong and relentless.  I had to lower AoA to kill it then resume my hard pull.

There's no recovering from it by using command inputs once it fully develops, short of lowering alpha. At least not one i've discovered or am able to execute right. But go into the excursions with no sideslip and you should be ok. 

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On 4/26/2023 at 12:11 PM, Spurts said:

also remember that the Hornet we have was only for the Marines and Foreign customers.  AFAIK the Navy never got any (or at least not many) of the -402 powered Hornets so EVERY story of AF training with Navy and the Navy Hornet being slow and underpowered is NOT the model of Hornet we have in DCS.  

thats actually a really good point if true

 

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On 4/30/2023 at 5:03 PM, eatthis said:

thats actually a really good point if true

 

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58149&p=460975

 

I can't account for all 175 F/A-18Cs with the uprated motors, but I can account for 113 of them going to Kuwait, Finland, and Switzerland.  The in-Game Lot 20 accounts for a total of 10 airframes that went to the USMC.  Looking at the first -402 powered hornet 164693 shows a USMC bird. https://www.airhistory.net/photo/280806/164693

I suppose one could spot check all  51 remaining tail numbers, but it's not much of a leap to say they were all FMS or USMC.

Okay I spot checked at least one tail number from every block and saw a USMC jet.  Let me know if you find otherwise.

Looking at the Block lists in the NATOPS I see 364 F/A-18As and 301 -400 powered F/A-18Cs compared to at most 62 US F/A-18Cs with -402 motors, seemingly all of which ended up under the USMC.  

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22 hours ago, Spurts said:

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58149&p=460975

 

I can't account for all 175 F/A-18Cs with the uprated motors, but I can account for 113 of them going to Kuwait, Finland, and Switzerland.  The in-Game Lot 20 accounts for a total of 10 airframes that went to the USMC.  Looking at the first -402 powered hornet 164693 shows a USMC bird. https://www.airhistory.net/photo/280806/164693

I suppose one could spot check all  51 remaining tail numbers, but it's not much of a leap to say they were all FMS or USMC.

Okay I spot checked at least one tail number from every block and saw a USMC jet.  Let me know if you find otherwise.

Looking at the Block lists in the NATOPS I see 364 F/A-18As and 301 -400 powered F/A-18Cs compared to at most 62 US F/A-18Cs with -402 motors, seemingly all of which ended up under the USMC.  

Didn't have the time to confirm it, but this is from an early Hornet thread here on the forums:

null

image.png

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So that looks like the 10 Lot 20 jets initially were VFA and then must have transferred to VFMA as Super Hornets came online.  My image search spot check may have sorted on most recent photos, which would make sense.  So if that holds for all 60 we are still looking at 660 (minus FMS) -400 powered A/C models in service for almost 40 years vs 60 -402 powered models that were only in USN service for a decade

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1 hour ago, Endline said:

After reading the thread, I got confused. Is the alternate AOA buffet in the options, the realistic one? 

Yes, we may make the "realistic option" the default in the future, but TBD.

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On 5/9/2023 at 5:50 PM, fat creason said:

Yes, we may make the "realistic option" the default in the future, but TBD.

well thats gonna bugger my muscle memory right up haha

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