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Spitfire from DCS in general.


jackd

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I had several modules already, so oh lucky me normandy 2.0 came reasonably priced, looks good.

Spent two days on testing the trialled the Spitfire ... Q: how old is this, as it seems quite unfinished IMO.

Seems almost like a Chinese paper kite at take off, especially from Chase view; flappering rudder and elevators ... wobbly take off on the runway, besides all that button pushing if you don't use automated takeoff procedures.

 

Guess i am spoiled. The IL2 bubble top Spitfire Mk.XIV i got a while ago, and their Normady update as well.

IL2's Spit modelling seems so much better done as it feels like driving a sturdy Rolls Royce; compared to the DCS version where a 50ies Citroen 2CV comes to mind.

Call me biassed, sorry,  ... 😉

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Hmm...to me it feels like the most realistic representation of the Spit in any sim ever. And I've tried them all. It completely matches what I read about it in all those memoires. And once you master it, it's not wobbly at all. Of course you need proper controls, properly set up, and actual practice. In any other game I've tried the Spit flew just like any other aeroplane, with none of the 'personality' it's supposed to have, consequently, no practice needed. Check out this tutorial on how to fly it properly:
 

 


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22 minutes ago, jackd said:

I had several modules already, so oh lucky me normandy 2.0 came reasonably priced, looks good.

Spent two days on testing the trialled the Spitfire ... Q: how old is this, as it seems quite unfinished IMO.

Seems almost like a Chinese paper kite at take off, especially from Chase view; flappering rudder and elevators ... wobbly take off on the runway, besides all that button pushing if you don't use automated takeoff procedures.

 

Guess i am spoiled. The IL2 bubble top Spitfire Mk.XIV i got a while ago, and their Normady update as well.

IL2's Spit modelling seems so much better done as it feels like driving a sturdy Rolls Royce; compared to the DCS version where a 50ies Citroen 2CV comes to mind.

Call me biassed, sorry,  ... 😉

 

Please see here:

 

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Jack, to each his own. For me it was the other way around - going from DCS Spit IX to GB one when it was released "there" felt like flying a brick. The primary reason is the overall elevator and rudder sensitivity, which is just much higher in DCS. If it wobbles, means you just overcontrol it badly. Also, don't forget to turn off auto rudder and takeoff helper in special options - they'll only make things worse.

Once you get used to that sensitivity, however (and lack of GB's Spit's "rubber/filtered" response), IXs in both sims don't feel THAT different in maneuvers. Speed retention is a different thing, though.

One thing DCS Spit needs BADLY is texture overhaul of the cockpit. Some of these files remember 2017 and specmaps instead of roughmets...

...but the Normandy release trailer showed (and Nineline confirmed in the comments) that retexture is indeed coming. Yay!

 


Edited by Art-J
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Of all the planes in IL2 , I liked the Spitfire the best, still IL2 style,which to me seemed unrealistic, like all the rest of their planes.

DCS Spitfire feels like flying a real plane (Like all DCS warbirds) for the Spitfire and Mosquito you need a good joystick with extensions to enjoy its realism.

If you dont have extensions then add curves.

There is no comparisson between any of the planes in IL2 to the ones in DCS IMHO.

I am ruined now and just can fly IL2 anymore.

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3 hours ago, Art-J said:

One thing DCS Spit needs BADLY is texture overhaul of the cockpit. Some of these files remember 2017 and specmaps instead of roughmets...

...but the Normandy release trailer showed (and Nineline confirmed in the comments) that retexture is indeed coming. Yay!

 

 

I certainly agree it needs an overhaul.  Will be elated when its done!

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3 hours ago, jackd said:

Seems almost like a Chinese paper kite at take off, especially from Chase view; flappering rudder and elevators ... wobbly take off on the runway, besides all that button pushing if you don't use automated takeoff procedures.

Nice windup attempt, not very subtle 😉

As for the active rudder, see how much rudder input is needed in the actual aircraft from 2 mins onwards in this video. There's also an overhead drone video of a Spitfire landing that I can't find which clearly shows how much rapid rudder input is needed.

 

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Thanks all, OK, i'll give it another shot .... since things like all the goodies of the assets pack and, yea, a B17 albeit only Ai, and Normandy 2 too with Paris and London.

I can fully understand why Eagle has to divide their attention between all the stuff, and i got it mainly because of the helicopters ....

But i am more a gamer towards flight sims, and not as much a flight simmer for accuracy i think, so i still miss a simple autopilot and or auto level,

or even some on/off switch to set the player to Ai for a while. Just to have time lo look around, while sitting out long boring fights and f.i. also follow ground actions.

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I've been occasionally flying Spit in CloD and Il-GB as well and I understand switching to representation of the airplane in the other sim platform feels VERY off at first glance. That's natural I guess.

Don't give up on the Spit in DCS yet, but take note about this prominent controls sensitivity and follow DD_Fenrir's advice posted above if you feel like you'd like to tone it down somewhat to make it closer to what you're used to. Also, having a joystick extension helps a lot with DCS Spit. It's not a "must have" item, but I know from my own experience of switching from stock Warthog to extended one that Spit became noticeably more pleasant to fly.

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4 hours ago, jackd said:

Thanks all, OK, i'll give it another shot .... since things like all the goodies of the assets pack and, yea, a B17 albeit only Ai, and Normandy 2 too with Paris and London.

 

I've flown a real Spit. The DCS model is pretty true to life in the just bopping around enjoying yourself region of the envelope, no idea about the aerobatic part because I didn't do that.
Those cliches about the pilot thinking where he wants to go, and the Spit just does it ? all true. It's incredibly responsive but not nervous or twitchy. You aren't watching it like a hawk in case it does something you don't expect.

But you do need to give the  DCS control settings some major tweaking to get it to behave properly with anything except an extended stick though.
Everyone has a different setup though, the only suggestion I can make is that you try to reduce saturation and are careful about adding any curvature.
The lack of a linear response that comes with curvatures over about 10 can make things much worse rather than better when it comes to the Spit. But YMMV and all that.

Once you get it dialled in then it becomes very easy to fly.

Why ED chose to have the unmodified controls only being OK with a stick length that just a tiny fraction of users own is a mystery to me, but then they move in mysterious ways and we as the end users just have to live with their decisions.

EDIT :- I just watched Reflecteds video, that's an outstanding tutorial, you really must check that out
Landing the DCS Spit though is impossible without bouncing into the air and coming back down on a wingtip. If the real Spit had flung itself back into the sky like that the Battle of Britain would have been over a day after it started, when we'd have run out of undamaged Spits 😄
Fortunately the real Spits undercarriage legs were made by Vickers and not by the ACME company that Wile E Coyote gets all his gadgets from


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DCS Spitfire has ruined it for me, I honestly don't use it in IL2 as it just feels so wrong. I can use it in Clod which is closer to DCS than to IL2. But DCS spit just feels so fantastic 

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27 minutes ago, jackd said:

Guess i'll have to learn handling it then, but right now i am trying to figure out what WW2 planes are worth it ... so far had an itchy start with this spit ...

Have you checked if you turned off the auto rudder and take off assistance? That wobbliness and controls movements you mention sound like those might be turned on, which they are by default.

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2 hours ago, Extranajero said:

Landing the DCS Spit though is impossible without bouncing into the air and coming back down on a wingtip. If the real Spit had flung itself back into the sky like that the Battle of Britain would have been over a day after it started, when we'd have run out of undamaged Spits 😄
Fortunately the real Spits undercarriage legs were made by Vickers and not by the ACME company that Wile E Coyote gets all his gadgets from

 

Eh... not so much. 

Is the Spit intolerant of inattentivesness? Definitely.

Are the margins narrow? They seem so at first but once it clicks you definitely find there's wiggle room and it doesn't have to be perfect every time - just pretty good...

 

Part 1: The Prep

First off is the approach - the adage goes that a good landing always starts with a good approach. This is doubly true of the DCS Spitty.

Coming straight in from a long way out is just making life difficult for yourself; the curved approach give you much better visibility of your runway positioning down to the point at which you flare and cut. Long straight approaches - if done correctly - will hide the runway under that honking great nose and could mean lots of last minute corrections if you find yourself off centreline, with all sorts of potential for over correction and spurious energy in the aeroplane as you try and pull her back to centreline which will only make the flare and cut a more hurried affair, increasing your workload and making an awkward landing all too likely.

If on straight in approach you can see the runway all the way in you're coming in damn steep and will make judging the flare all the more difficult. 

There's a reason that real Spit pilots adopt the curved approach - I would suggest you adopt the same procedure as a matter of course.

 

Part 2: Touchdown!

Many of you will be getting down in one piece (mostly) but having a very alarming experience doing so. Wingtips slapping the tarmac, no particular bias, left or right, but either way you're off in the grass, generally facing the wrong way perhaps with a prop strike and maybe some clipped wings. Sound familiar?

Me too.

I was having exactly the same as you chaps, until I tried cutting later and flaring at a lower alt; I suspected the wing drop was coming from having too much sink on contact with terra firma and the energy from this, whilst not enough to cause a bounce, was still more than could be absorbed by the u/c. With no airspeed/lift to get back up it threw the load into momentum about the u/c contact points thus one of the wings is thrown down.

All this behaviour will be exacerbated if you have any side-slip or side load on the a/c as you touch down. Bootfuls of rudder should not be required at this stage in low cross-wind conditions (check your crosswinds by the way; if you're in a mission where you're trying to land in heavy crosswinds then have a rethink. Trying to run before learning to walk is only going to frustrate you). If you're making large corrections in any plane to get on centreline then GO AROUND. Call it quits and try again. It's that simple. 

So what's the lesson? Cut later and flare lower. Keep rudder input to a minimum.

By deliberately flaring at a lower altitude we reduce the height at which we drop from = less energy. By cutting power later the aircraft settles rather than stalls, thus again reducing sink rate = less energy.

The flare itself I make very gently - hence the later power cut - as the low longitudinal stability of the spit and the stick sensitivity makes it easy for the nose to end up higher than desired.

Get all this right and you should be rewarded with a gentle settle onto the ground and a satisfying squeal of rubber on asphalt. Often my mains touched first followed by the tail wheel a fraction of a second later, so it does not have to be perfect three-point. It's just that the margins are narrow for getting it wrong. Currently your major issues will be flaring too high and cutting too early; just hold off a bit longer on both and it should make life easier.

 

Part 3: The Straight and Narrow

You've touched down with no wing drop! Hooray! However, the Spitfire is not yet done trying to find ways to embarrass you and inattentiveness at this stage will end up with you in the grass with some major airframe components likely scattered around you.

FLY THE PLANE! You are not done till you're sitting back at the pan with the engine off! All those issues you had at takeoff with directional instability are just waiting to throw you off the runway. 

Stick back in your lap once you're sure she's down and staying so.

Get on the rudder like Michael Flatley (Lord of the Dance/Riverdance for those who need a point of reference) - just avoid brakes! You'll have plenty of airspeed for the rudder to be effective during the early part of the ground roll. Just like takeoff, keep the inputs short and sharp! Adding brakes too soon will throw you into the grass.

As you slow you'll start to feel that rudder alone isn't quite cutting the mustard; your inputs to keep her straight will become larger and longer; it's at this point you start bringing in a dab of brakes to help keep her in line. But keep dancing!

Finally you'll come to a stop, engine still running, pointing the same way and with all major and minor structures still attached. And it's now that you are allowed to breathe! Congratulations! Flaps away and get out the god-damn way cos someone's likely to be making their final approach and could do without worrying about bumping into you!

Getting this right takes practise - it took me a good number of attempts to hit the right formula and get it right more than I got it wrong.

However, I'm able to do this consistently - as long as I concentrate! - so I assure you it's not impossible.

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52 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Have you checked if you turned off the auto rudder and take off assistance? That wobbliness and controls movements you mention sound like those might be turned on, which they are by default.

Ah, that might be it ...

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34 minutes ago, jackd said:

Ah, that might be it ...

Sometimes, even if you turned it off previously, patches turn it on again. Check it just in case.

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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So i switched off auto rudder. No difference, no rudder trimming neither while chase view shows a desperately fast shaking rudder with or without auto rudder.

How can you get rid of that shaking?

PS it's the same with a P47D i just tested, and also no elevator nor rudder trimming possible, in chase and in cockpit view

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4 minutes ago, jackd said:

So i switched off auto rudder. No difference, no rudder trimming neither while chase view shows a desperately fast shaking rudder with or without auto rudder.

How can you get rid of that shaking?

PS it's the same with a P47D i just tested, and also no elevator nor rudder trimming possible, in chase and in cockpit view

Game mode enabled?

 

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