Can we go back to the old flight model for the Huey....

[StreakerSix]

And use the new one for something like the AH-1G Cobra? 

The old flight model was about perfect for a flight sim... 99.9% of anyone that flies this doesn't know how a "real Huey" reacts, all I know is mast bump is WAY too ungodly easy to do now and I need to reduce collective to get the nose down when at higher speeds or otherwise it climbs.... And yes, my cyclic is pushed 100% forward and I still have to reduce collective to dump my nose down.

 

Please please please scrap this flight model (where the Huey is concerned) and go back to the old one.

[admiki]

Don't pull that much power that gives you 110+ knots?

[CHPL]

@StreakerSix

 

Location:
[game drive]\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\Uh-1H\FM
File: FMOptions.lua
Open with Text Editor, 2nd Line:
New_engine_model = true
change to:
New_engine_model = false

 

[StreakerSix]

3 hours ago, CHPL said:

@StreakerSix

 

Location:
[game drive]\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\Uh-1H\FM
File: FMOptions.lua
Open with Text Editor, 2nd Line:
New_engine_model = true
change to:
New_engine_model = false

 

I would but I have to stay with a pure client... I don't play SP.

On 5/23/2023 at 11:26 AM, admiki said:

Don't pull that much power that gives you 110+ knots?

Yeah... I was too use to the old flight model watching exhaust temps.... One of my flight informed me to watch torque now instead. Problem solved there but the AI gunners are broke AF now, kind of typical every few patches with the Huey there though.

[admiki]

6 hours ago, StreakerSix said:

Yeah... I was too use to the old flight model watching exhaust temps.... One of my flight informed me to watch torque now instead. Problem solved there but the AI gunners are broke AF now, kind of typical every few patches with the Huey there though.

Don't worry, ED will fix it in #twoweeks

[primus_TR]

On 5/23/2023 at 5:58 AM, StreakerSix said:

Please please please scrap this flight model (where the Huey is concerned) and go back to the old one.

+1

[TAIPAN_]

On 5/23/2023 at 12:58 PM, StreakerSix said:

I need to reduce collective to get the nose down when at higher speeds or otherwise it climbs.... And yes, my cyclic is pushed 100% forward and I still have to reduce collective to dump my nose down.

besides the cyclic 100% forward, are you also trimmed forward stick?

Also what speed are you flying at? I haven't had mast bump yet but I'm only flying about 140mph which is slightly below the max speed. Wondering how far above the max speed would cause mast bump.

Personally the biggest problem of the new flight model for me is the massive fuel consumption

[primus_TR]

5 hours ago, TAIPAN_ said:

Personally the biggest problem of the new flight model for me is the massive fuel consumption

This, plus too much head wobble and too much left pedal needed when hovering and taking off. 

[Slippa]

I was learning to fly it when it was changed. I’d left it a few days and thought it was busted when I came back to it.

if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it comes to mind.

[Ramsay]

9 hours ago, Slippa said:

... if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it comes to mind.

The trouble is the old flight model has been broken for a while, just because people adjusted to it's faults (the engine has been under performing since DCS 1.5.6) , didn't make it "right".

IMHO once ED have fine tuned engine, transmission and torque output to realistic figures and the DCS Huey can pass a realistic "hover check" at different altitudes and weights, they will have a much stronger foundation to tune the flight model (if that is their plan).

[Slippa]

I was only just converting to it, got it almost tidy then had the update. Maybe not the most qualified to compare I s'pose.

If it's closer to where it should be or on the right path toward it, it's all good.

[CHPL]

Am 30.5.2023 um 23:21 schrieb Slippa:

I was only just converting to it, got it almost tidy then had the update. Maybe not the most qualified to compare I s'pose.

If it's closer to where it should be or on the right path toward it, it's all good.

Many screws have been tightened and, unfortunately, probably more worsened than improved.
That can happen, but questions are also justified, such as who has tested this before.
It is to be hoped that ED very quickly makes the UH-1 again the best simulated helicopter that it was.

[jpuk]

On 5/30/2023 at 5:29 AM, TAIPAN_ said:

besides the cyclic 100% forward, are you also trimmed forward stick?

Also what speed are you flying at? I haven't had mast bump yet but I'm only flying about 140mph which is slightly below the max speed. Wondering how far above the max speed would cause mast bump.

Personally the biggest problem of the new flight model for me is the massive fuel consumption

Hi, as far as I know, 140 mph is absolutely out of reality. Real max speed is somewhere about 110 but common speed is about 90, sometimes 100.

[Flappie]

On 5/25/2023 at 8:25 AM, admiki said:

Don't worry, ED will fix it in #twoweeks

Not without a proper bug report.

On 5/25/2023 at 2:01 AM, StreakerSix said:

the AI gunners are broke AF now, kind of typical every few patches with the Huey there though.

Please create a proper bug report here: https://forum.dcs.world/forum/242-bugs-and-problems/

We need a better description of the issue and a short single player track (unless it's a multiplayer-only issue).

[TAIPAN_]

6 hours ago, jpuk said:

Hi, as far as I know, 140 mph is absolutely out of reality. Real max speed is somewhere about 110 but common speed is about 90, sometimes 100.

Thanks, I found that part seems ok ie I can get my cyclic far enough forward though I am a regular trimmer.

As for the comments about requiring too much rudder on liftoff, I don't know as I've never flown a Huey in real life.

[QuiGon]

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by QuiGon

[Hobel]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb jpuk:

Hi, as far as I know, 140 mph is absolutely out of reality. Real max speed is somewhere about 110 but common speed is about 90, sometimes 100.

The charts Tim posted show something different

 

 

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/320223-the-hueys-performance-profile-is-unacceptably-inaccurate-documentation-provided/

[Tim_Fragmagnet]

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

The charts Tim posted show something different

 

 

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/320223-the-hueys-performance-profile-is-unacceptably-inaccurate-documentation-provided/

For those who end up not reading all that I've written.

I'll sum up this graph extremely simply.

That blue plot is the maximum speed you could achieve at 7500lbs in the previous performance model if you absolutely max out its available power even ignoring EGT.

That red plot is the maximum speed you could achieve in a real huey with the old metal blades at 7500lbs if you absolutely max out its available power, completely ignoring the safety limit of 50PSI of torque on the transmission. (EGT wasn't really a problem on the real thing)

The real thing CAN mechanically go that fast, you're just most likely going to damage or break the transmission by doing it.
Additionally, our module uses modern composite blades, which at maximum power provide a top speed of around 10knots higher.

The whole point of showing what the maximum achievable speed is, is so that the correct amount of power is required at speeds the real thing would actually fly at.


And if you're wondering where I got the max power speed data for the old metal blade huey.

 

It contains many many tables of data

 

 

Now you might see the Vne of 120 knots and say "it's the Vne, it can't go faster."


and to that I say.

 

 

 

 

We clear?

Edited June 2, 2023 by Tim_Fragmagnet

[TAIPAN_]

On 6/2/2023 at 10:41 PM, Tim_Fragmagnet said:

For those who end up not reading all that I've written.

I'll sum up this graph extremely simply.

That blue plot is the maximum speed you could achieve at 7500lbs in the previous performance model if you absolutely max out its available power even ignoring EGT.

That red plot is the maximum speed you could achieve in a real huey with the old metal blades at 7500lbs if you absolutely max out its available power, completely ignoring the safety limit of 50PSI of torque on the transmission. (EGT wasn't really a problem on the real thing)

The real thing CAN mechanically go that fast, you're just most likely going to damage or break the transmission by doing it.
Additionally, our module uses modern composite blades, which at maximum power provide a top speed of around 10knots higher.

The whole point of showing what the maximum achievable speed is, is so that the correct amount of power is required at speeds the real thing would actually fly at.


And if you're wondering where I got the max power speed data for the old metal blade huey.

 

It contains many many tables of data

 

 

Now you might see the Vne of 120 knots and say "it's the Vne, it can't go faster."


and to that I say.

 

 

 

 

We clear?

 

Thanks makes sense.

Regarding the comments some were making about rudder issues and controllability, I've had a chance to get more hours in and noticed it alot as well.

Would this stem from incorrect torque due to the power issues?

eg for hover check and liftoff you need a huge amount of rudder and have to take off very slow to prevent loss of control and PIOs. For slow speed flight sometimes you can hardly turn left at all and it's just easier to give up and turn right instead.

Then when you get fast, the controls end up being very twitchy (feels like modern helicopters with their SAS turned off).

Would it be correct to say that all of the control issues stem from the engine performance change and that would be all that's needed to fix them?

[Tim_Fragmagnet]

15 minutes ago, TAIPAN_ said:

Thanks makes sense.

Regarding the comments some were making about rudder issues and controllability, I've had a chance to get more hours in and noticed it alot as well.

Would this stem from incorrect torque due to the power issues?

eg for hover check and liftoff you need a huge amount of rudder and have to take off very slow to prevent loss of control and PIOs. For slow speed flight sometimes you can hardly turn left at all and it's just easier to give up and turn right instead.

Then when you get fast, the controls end up being very twitchy (feels like modern helicopters with their SAS turned off).

Would it be correct to say that all of the control issues stem from the engine performance change and that would be all that's needed to fix them?

The yaw control issues are mostly due to the incorrect amount of torque required to hover, yes.
However the tail rotor as a whole has been an object of suspect in my research and I'm still not confident with its modeling.

As for the controls being twitchy, that's just helicopters in general due to the way they're controlled IRL. A real cyclic has a much larger throw than an unextended flight stick with no curves applied to the axis. Even with a full sized cyclic, pilots still only need to use tiny adjustments in normal cruise operation.

I have yet to profile the actual control authority against the real thing but I do have the data to do so.

[TAIPAN_]

14 minutes ago, Tim_Fragmagnet said:

As for the controls being twitchy, that's just helicopters in general due to the way they're controlled IRL. A real cyclic has a much larger throw than an unextended flight stick with no curves applied to the axis. Even with a full sized cyclic, pilots still only need to use tiny adjustments in normal cruise operation.
 

Thanks, in my case I have a 10cm extension which is half as good as it could be since some use a 20cm. 

However I'm not able to use curves effectively especially with this Huey because it sometimes needs full forward stick to accelerate in between trimming. That may also be a side effect of the engine model though, but I don't want to go non-linear when I'm using the whole range at least in Y-axis. Maybe I could try in X-axis but I'm so used to it now I probably shouldn't mess with it.

[Tim_Fragmagnet]

55 minutes ago, TAIPAN_ said:

Thanks, in my case I have a 10cm extension which is half as good as it could be since some use a 20cm. 

However I'm not able to use curves effectively especially with this Huey because it sometimes needs full forward stick to accelerate in between trimming. That may also be a side effect of the engine model though, but I don't want to go non-linear when I'm using the whole range at least in Y-axis. Maybe I could try in X-axis but I'm so used to it now I probably shouldn't mess with it.

I personally use a 300mm extension on a VKB gunfighter. It's still not enough.

The cyclic on the UH-1H has a throw of about 12.4inches measured from the center of the grip in an arc.

The vkb gunfighter has a gimbal range of +-20degrees, so a total of 40 degrees.
so with a throw of 40degrees, a total length from the gimbal to the center of the grip of 452mm would provide 12.4inches of grip movement across the arc and would thus perform identically to the real huey's cyclic.
However don't forget about the length of the grip itself, with the VKB warbird grip, that's near enough to 100mm from the base of the grip to the center where we would be measuring.
So combine that with a 350mm extension and we have our 450mm stick.

[Dogmanbird]

i built 35cm extensions for my two gunfighters and calibrate for the full range of travel. Even that requires tiny constant millimeter movements to achieve smooth stable flight.

[Tim_Fragmagnet]

5 hours ago, Dogmanbird said:

i built 35cm extensions for my two gunfighters and calibrate for the full range of travel. Even that requires tiny constant millimeter movements to achieve smooth stable flight.

That's correct.

Helicopter controls as a whole are extremely sensitive on pretty much every helicopter, including the huey.
here's a timestamped video example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cUXsCmi9Uc&t=136s

[TAIPAN_]

I think I could only fit that length stick with mounting on the ground, also with my tight simpit it would smash against the front panels and against the seat. I have a seat cutout but it wouldn't be wide enough to prevent it hitting the sides.

I guess the real life helicopters wouldn't really need to move the stick in the full range where it would push against the legs except in extreme circumstances, but in the sim I use the same stick for jets so a shorter extension is my compromise. I manage to control it only through alot of practice without curves, and not flying too crazy. We have to live with springs that return to center as well, unless you go with a specialist clutch solution that doesn't suit all aircraft.